Just Walk Away - Blacklisting - and Twits without Twitter

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Just Walk Away - Blacklisting - and Twits without Twitter

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Gail Shaw SSC Guru Points: 1004504 More actions · Answer 1

Jeff Moden (4/12/2009)
I've been known to stop an interview after the first question for those same reasons. I've no tolerance for condescending or arrogant people especially where I work. Even if you're a bloody genius, you have to get along with the other people. Of course, giving the wrong answer on top of all that is instant grounds for a rapid fire volley of pork chops followed by an immediate military escort off the premises.
I can handle wrong answers much better than any form of arrogance. Confidence is good. Anyone who doesn't know the difference needs to do some serious soul searching.

My main issue with the person in question was that while I was the one asking the questions, he directed every single answer to my colleague (who was sitting a couple seats away). It's as if I was beneath his notice. Since he would have been working with me if hired, it did not leave a good impression.

Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass

Steve Jones - SSC Editor SSC Guru Points: 736212 More actions · Answer 2

And Jeff, don't think about canceling a book because someone found a different solution. There needs to be multiple ways to do things, and even if it's not the most efficient, it's likely better than what most people write. You could also reference another solution, or even get a chapter from a co-writer on a better way to do things.

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1004339 More actions · Answer 3

Steve Jones - Editor (4/13/2009)
And Jeff, don't think about canceling a book because someone found a different solution. There needs to be multiple ways to do things, and even if it's not the most efficient, it's likely better than what most people write. You could also reference another solution, or even get a chapter from a co-writer on a better way to do things.

Heh... actually, it turns out that nothing has really changed. VARCHAR(MAX) is tough on Tally table and other pseudo-cursor solutions for a number of reasons. On VARCHAR(8000), both still rule. In some of the testing done, the Tally table solution came very close to CLR speeds for splits.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1004339 More actions · Answer 4

GilaMonster (4/13/2009)
My main issue with the person in question was that while I was the one asking the questions, he directed every single answer to my colleague (who was sitting a couple seats away). It's as if I was beneath his notice. Since he would have been working with me if hired, it did not leave a good impression.

Pork chops, Gail... you gotta remember to take a load of pork chops to interviews. 😉

There's no excuse for what I think may have been cultural arrogance in this world today. But, that's one of the real purposes of an interview... the search for "tics" and "triggers".

I sure feel bad that good folks like you (heh... and me... I'm old) have to go through such a thing. People can be so rude and ill-mannered.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

The Dixie Flatline SSC Guru Points: 53354 More actions · Answer 5

VARCHAR(MAX) is tough on Tally table and other pseudo-cursor solutions for a number of reasons.

So the answer is "It depends." No doubt you will be honest enough to include those known exceptional cases in your book, making it even more valuable. Go ahead on.

__________________________________________________

Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills

Paul White SSC Guru Points: 150467 More actions · Answer 6

Jeff Moden (4/16/2009)
Heh... actually, it turns out that nothing has really changed. VARCHAR(MAX) is tough on Tally table and other pseudo-cursor solutions for a number of reasons. On VARCHAR(8000), both still rule. In some of the testing done, the Tally table solution came very close to CLR speeds for splits.

Detailed performance results:

http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/FindPost697144.aspx

The tally was 37% slower on the 'short' test, I think. Admittedly, the differences are only important for larger strings with a relatively low occurrence of delimiters. One could argue both ways based on the results:

1. Ultimately, CLR is faster than the tally solution in all tested cases. The difference varies from slight to remarkable.

2. The added complexity of CLR is probably not justified in any but the most extreme cases.

3. A tally solution remains an elegant, if somewhat brute-force, solution.

4. The tally solution is arguably easier to implement, has no external dependencies (such as policies on enabling CLR), and is easily re-used for other problems which suit it.

...and so on.

🙂 Paul

Short answer: write the book!

Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1004339 More actions · Answer 7

Paul White (4/16/2009)
3. A tally solution remains an elegant, if somewhat brute-force, solution.

Thanks for the confidence on the book, Paul. I am curious though... you keep saying that the Tally solutions are "brute-force"... other than using a CLR, what are you comparing it to for you to give it such a label? Or, are you just talking about the fact that it basically scans each character using SUBSTRING rather than the more elegant positional use of CHARINDEX looping solutions?

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Paul White SSC Guru Points: 150467 More actions · Answer 8

Jeff Moden (4/16/2009)
Paul White (4/16/2009)
3. A tally solution remains an elegant, if somewhat brute-force, solution.
Thanks for the confidence on the book, Paul. I am curious though... you keep saying that the Tally solutions are "brute-force"... other than using a CLR, what are you comparing it to for you to give it such a label? Or, are you just talking about the fact that it basically scans each character using SUBSTRING rather than the more elegant positional use of CHARINDEX looping solutions?

Yes - the last part. CHARINDEX seeks to the desired delimiter as you say, whereas the tally does a SUBSTRING and compare for every character in the searched string.

I will happily adopt a less emotive term if someone suggests a good replacement for 'brute force' 😉

Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1004339 More actions · Answer 9

Paul White (4/16/2009)
I will happily adopt a less emotive term if someone suggests a good replacement for 'brute force' 😉

Heh... nope... now that I understand what you mean, not necessary. I was just getting whiplash between the words "elegant" and "brute force". 😀

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Paul White SSC Guru Points: 150467 More actions · Answer 10

Jeff Moden (4/16/2009)
Heh... nope... now that I understand what you mean, not necessary. I was just getting whiplash between the words "elegant" and "brute force". 😀

I see what you mean (reading it back) - the brain sort of stumbles at the disconnect between the two!

Oh well.

Hey, I'll swap you a copy of your book for a good beginner's guide to C#

:laugh::w00t::laugh:

edit for spacing

Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 11

Jeff Moden (4/16/2009)
Steve Jones - Editor (4/13/2009)
And Jeff, don't think about canceling a book because someone found a different solution. There needs to be multiple ways to do things, and even if it's not the most efficient, it's likely better than what most people write. You could also reference another solution, or even get a chapter from a co-writer on a better way to do things.
Heh... actually, it turns out that nothing has really changed. VARCHAR(MAX) is tough on Tally table and other pseudo-cursor solutions for a number of reasons. On VARCHAR(8000), both still rule. In some of the testing done, the Tally table solution came very close to CLR speeds for splits.

I hopefully get an honorable mention for stumbling on that little bit of info. You seemed a little shocked when the tally table stumbled.

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1004339 More actions · Answer 12

I knew it would stumble on VARCHAR(MAX)... I just didn't realize how bad. However, on the thread that Flo has been orchestrating, he sent me a PM with some nasty fast Tally table code on the VARCHAR(MAX) problem. I did a pretty deep analysis and it turns out that it's not the code he's using that makes it so fast... it's... nah... can't steal the thunder. He's in the process of writing up what we found. It also makes the standard Tally table solution beat the pants off of everything else. You'll see.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 13

Jeff Moden (4/20/2009)
I knew it would stumble on VARCHAR(MAX)... I just didn't realize how bad. However, on the thread that Flo has been orchestrating, he sent me a PM with some nasty fast Tally table code on the VARCHAR(MAX) problem. I did a pretty deep analysis and it turns out that it's not the code he's using that makes it so fast... it's... nah... can't steal the thunder. He's in the process of writing up what we found. It also makes the standard Tally table solution beat the pants off of everything else. You'll see.

Can't wait! Well, I guess I'll have too, though, won't I.

The Dixie Flatline SSC Guru Points: 53354 More actions · Answer 14

You're a cruel man, Jeff. I'm also on pins and needles. Is he going to post it in the tally thread, or do we have to wait for his article?

__________________________________________________

Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills

Paul White SSC Guru Points: 150467 More actions · Answer 15

The rumour is that Jeff has been busy porting the .NET common language runtime to T-SQL/native client.

T-SQL.Net - might catch on...?

Just kidding Jeff - I can't wait to see it either!

Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi