May 10, 2014 at 11:02 am
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Just Enough know-how
May 10, 2014 at 9:43 pm
Having done a couple of dozen interviews for Senior Level Developers and DBAs over the last 2 years or so, I'm totally amazed at how low the bar has been set for "just enough know-how".
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 12, 2014 at 3:03 am
Jeff Moden (5/10/2014)
Having done a couple of dozen interviews for Senior Level Developers and DBAs over the last 2 years or so, I'm totally amazed at how low the bar has been set for "just enough know-how".
Having seen the (terrible) level of knowledge that developers who think that they are experts in SQL Server have as well, I am little surprised at Jeff's frustration. It appears that the level to satisfy "just enough know-how" is far lower than it should be across the board. This must not be deemed acceptable so that we can raise the bar(s).
Some people will work hard across a broad range of technologies but, due to the requirement for a width of knowledge, will stop targeting learning in one area once they perceive that they have gained an accepted level of expertise.
The more we push back, the better this situation will become.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
May 12, 2014 at 7:59 am
I've started a real pushback on all of this. It's amazing how many of the candidates (something like 22 out of 24) can't answer the first question, which is "using T-SQL, how do you select the current date and time"? If they can't answer that, the interview is over. It's a total waste of time if they can't get beyond that.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 12, 2014 at 8:12 am
I totally agree! And now I see more and more developers embracing ORMs like Entity Framework so that they "don't have to mess with all that database crap" and it scares me. What scares me more is some of the code and database designs that come out of those packages.
The thinking goes, lets do a few small programs using EF and see how that goes. Well small programs can be extremely badly designed and still seem to work fine so everything looks great. Then you do a major enterprise application using the same tool and all of a sudden, all hell is breaking loose because the application is not scalable and it runs like molasses.
This happens because the people in charge don't have a level of knowledge that they should have and they won't listen to the people who do. I find it all very frustrating.
May 12, 2014 at 8:31 am
I find that it is all too much driven by a "deliver now" culture. On top of that Agile is rolled out as an argument when someone talks of performance and design. It appears that there is a generation of "deliver quickly" developers regardless of the future issues it creates. They end up popular with the managers and rarely seem to stay long enough to reap what they have sown 🙁
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
May 12, 2014 at 8:38 am
Jeff Moden (5/12/2014)
I've started a real pushback on all of this. It's amazing how many of the candidates (something like 22 out of 24) can't answer the first question, which is "using T-SQL, how do you select the current date and time"? If they can't answer that, the interview is over. It's a total waste of time if they can't get beyond that.
I've only been using T-SQL for just over twelve months and I'm largely self-taught as are the other members of the team. A question like 'how do you select the current date and time?' would actually make me a little nervous. I know how I'd do it:
Select GETDATE()
but I'd be worried about the sharp intake of breath and termination of the interview that may follow. I know I don't know the in depth stuff, and I'm constantly learning, but I wouldn't be at all surprised that the basics I thought I knew were wrong.
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May 12, 2014 at 8:38 am
Jeff Moden (5/12/2014)
I've started a real pushback on all of this. It's amazing how many of the candidates (something like 22 out of 24) can't answer the first question, which is "using T-SQL, how do you select the current date and time"? If they can't answer that, the interview is over. It's a total waste of time if they can't get beyond that.
Yeah, that would clearly show a lack of use of SQL Server :).
May 12, 2014 at 8:40 am
Jim Youmans-439383 (5/12/2014)
I totally agree! And now I see more and more developers embracing ORMs like Entity Framework so that they "don't have to mess with all that database crap" and it scares me. What scares me more is some of the code and database designs that come out of those packages.
ORM users are one of the groups of "programmers" I tend to think of as "users". Not because ORMs are bad per se, but minimally, using the 1 level deeper example, you ought to know what code the ORM is generating, and how to override it if it turns out to be a less than adequate solution.
Just hoping that someone else's code does a good job is not being a programmer at all.
May 12, 2014 at 8:48 am
BWFC (5/12/2014)
Jeff Moden (5/12/2014)
I've started a real pushback on all of this. It's amazing how many of the candidates (something like 22 out of 24) can't answer the first question, which is "using T-SQL, how do you select the current date and time"? If they can't answer that, the interview is over. It's a total waste of time if they can't get beyond that.I've only been using T-SQL for just over twelve months and I'm largely self-taught as are the other members of the team. A question like 'how do you select the current date and time?' would actually make me a little nervous. I know how I'd do it:
Select GETDATE()
And the interview would continue. Obviously using T-SQL for 12 months (depending on whether it was your only task or not), one might not expect you to know everything (like GETUTCDATE(), SYSDATETIME(), CURRENT_TIMESTAMP, and SYSDATETIMEOFFSET() (I looked up the last two because they weren't in active RAM either), but I can't imagine anyone not fetching the current point in time from SQL Server.
If you gave me a wrong answer, I would at least ask you how you could have ever gotten by not getting the current time, partly for my amusement, but also because that is a very common operation and if you actually have a good reason why you hadn't, I might try a few other areas. Of course, that would have to be only for a very junior position 🙂
May 12, 2014 at 8:51 am
Last week, the developer asked me if it would be OK to add indexes to columns A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H, and I on TableA? I was a bit confused and asked him why? He said it would speed up the query so I asked to see the query. He said he didn't have it because EF created it, but indexes speed up queries right?
Seriously, I couldn't make that up. And this is the lead developer for the project.
May 12, 2014 at 12:01 pm
BWFC (5/12/2014)
Jeff Moden (5/12/2014)
I've started a real pushback on all of this. It's amazing how many of the candidates (something like 22 out of 24) can't answer the first question, which is "using T-SQL, how do you select the current date and time"? If they can't answer that, the interview is over. It's a total waste of time if they can't get beyond that.I've only been using T-SQL for just over twelve months and I'm largely self-taught as are the other members of the team. A question like 'how do you select the current date and time?' would actually make me a little nervous. I know how I'd do it:
Select GETDATE()
but I'd be worried about the sharp intake of breath and termination of the interview that may follow. I know I don't know the in depth stuff, and I'm constantly learning, but I wouldn't be at all surprised that the basics I thought I knew were wrong.
If you only had a year's worth of experience, I wouldn't be trying to hire you for a Senior position. 🙂 The other thing is that I start the interview off by explaining to the candidate that I ask no trick questions and that the obvious answer is good enough. Although I'd love for a candidate to be able to actually explain he (s)he'd use Itzik's cascading CTE method to produce a table containing a single column of whole numbers from 1 to a million, I won't fault someone for correctly describing the way to do it with a While loop... that's just a matter of training that I can take care of after we hire someone. Just like the "GETDATE()" or "CURRENTTIMESTAMP" question, though, very few candidates have a clue as to how to do such a thing even with a While loop. It's terribly difficult for me to believe that someone claiming 5 to more than 10 years of experience can't do either.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 13, 2014 at 1:51 pm
Gary Varga (5/12/2014)
Having seen the (terrible) level of knowledge that developers who think that they are experts in SQL Server have as well, I am little surprised at Jeff's frustration. It appears that the level to satisfy "just enough know-how" is far lower than it should be across the board. This must not be deemed acceptable so that we can raise the bar(s)..
Having experienced it myself, I will say one of the things with SQL Server and database work in general is that you actual have to increase your knowledge past a certain point before you even grasp how much you don't know.
As a result, a lot of those "just enough" people don't even realize how limited their knowledge is.
As an example, my abilities in SQL server are light years ahead of where I was a few years ago. But despite all that progress, I also have way more on my "to learn" list now than then. Because on many topics, I knew so little that I wasn't even aware of what the holes in my knowledge were, much less how deep those holes were.
May 13, 2014 at 1:54 pm
Nevyn (5/13/2014)
Gary Varga (5/12/2014)
Having seen the (terrible) level of knowledge that developers who think that they are experts in SQL Server have as well, I am little surprised at Jeff's frustration. It appears that the level to satisfy "just enough know-how" is far lower than it should be across the board. This must not be deemed acceptable so that we can raise the bar(s)..
Having experienced it myself, I will say one of the things with SQL Server and database work in general is that you actual have to increase your knowledge past a certain point before you even grasp how much you don't know.
As a result, a lot of those "just enough" people don't even realize how limited their knowledge is.
As an example, my abilities in SQL server are light years ahead of where I was a few years ago. But despite all that progress, I also have way more on my "to learn" list now than then. Because on many topics, I knew so little that I wasn't even aware of what the holes in my knowledge were, much less how deep those holes were.
Me too.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
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