Junior
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I'm working as a Junior Database Analyst, but I am doing more than a Junior DBA. I think a lot of it depends on the company. I've worked as an IT Analyst, Database Administrator, a Release Manager and now a Jr Dba over the past 10 years. I've been a db developer and a db administrator. I wish that I had been a Jr dba under a Sr dba to learn from them; to have a mentor. I'm mostly self taught and done whatever needed to be done. Whether it was writing documentation, disaster recovery plans, server updates, db design, db coding, help desk, tech support, HTML coding, teaching, testing, playing policeman, fireman and Sherlock Holmes etc.
I think a lot of it is the title pays less. If I'm a Junior DBA then I don't get paid as much. Previous bosses have told me that they wanted to give me a better title but that the couldn't afford the raise to go with it. I did apply for the Sr DBA position here and was told that the Sr DBA would need to answer the questions without hesitation and wouldn't need to look up the answer. But I must be doing something right because they never replaced the Sr DBA. They are days that I feel like I am drowning and that everyone wants something different from me. And then there are the days where I learn something I didn't before and get to incorporate it and see my code work more efficiently. And then there are days I wish I could reason a problem out with someone who has a little more experience. Someone who could show me the more effecient way of doing something. I know that I will never be the best in my field and that's okay. As long as I have learned something new that day, it was a good day.
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MikeC,
That is very funny if a junior dba knows the difference between declarative and imperative languages what would a senior dba need to know?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperative_programming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarative_programming
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie -
First day Jr dba should be able to spell it without cheating and looking it up on the job application.
(from an earlier forum by Steve)The Jr dba should also show the aptitude and attitude for the work. You get an idea on day one, but it will be more important at day 365 or 730.
I believe that will indicate the ability to improve skills more than being "book smart" and becoming a valuable part of the team.
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I think this question and it’s answers bring up a missing job-title “DBevloper”, or the lack of true definition in job roles.
There is definitely a job role out there for any skill level. My first thought is that a “DBevloper” can perform DBA functions as well as write complex queries and procs, but still not the be the “DBA”. My definition of this role is someone who understands the proper (or near best practice) design/use of procedures, indices, functions, separation of data files on physical disks, basic backup strategies, when/why to rebuild indices, and the list can go on …. But they wouldn’t know the details in installing/maintaining Clusters, Replication and all of that stuff …….
To explain my point…… I work in an IT department that has:
2 .NET Contractors (mainly ASP)
1 Web Developer
2 SQL Developer/DBA’s (one is me and the other the IT Director)
1 part-time/contract Sr. DBA (< 4 hours a week)
6 “other IT” – helpdesk/Network Admin/etc…
Now the company I work for company is not HUGE nor is it small, we’ve got about 5000 employees nation-wide and earn somewhere in and above the 9 figure mark. What I’m getting to here is that I’m sure there are jobs out there for smaller companies that need a full-fledge DBA (Sr, Jr or whatever) and I’m sure there are larger companies without that need (just a SQL developer). What is missing, in my opinion, is a Job Role/Title that fulfills the “middle ground” …. And pays accordingly!
Now, after writing all of that, when I really sit back and think about it, it almost seems that there should be a scale of some sort. I suspect that it really depends on many things.
Can this person:
· administer SQL Server (and to what level)
· administer Reporting Services (and to what level)
· write/create SQL Reports (and to what level)
· write SQL ( yes, almost ALL DBAs can write SQL, but how well and to what level )
· work with SSIS (and to what level)
· work with SSAS (and to what level)
· … again the list could go on …
My point is that I feel that a Job Title/Role of SQL Developer or SQL DBA really doesn’t mean much more than “you work with SQL” and to what level really depends on the company you work for and how they define it.
My question is “Should the SQL field's titles/certifications be split out to more than Developer and DBA?”
I look forward to everyone’s comments and rebuttals!
______________________________________________________________________
Personal Motto: Why push the envelope when you can just open it?
If you follow the direction given HERE[/url] you'll likely increase the number and quality of responses you get to your question.
Jason L. Selburg -
Jason,
I think you've brought up a great point and I think SQL Developer is different than DBA. I've got a couple weeks focusing on DBAs, more the admin, full time database guy, but I'd be happy to run this as a poll one week as well.
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When I first got into the DBA realm, it was back in 1994 when I applied for a transfer in the company from Support Officer to Assistant DBA. I could spell 'DB2' and I had the aptitude and a few concepts in my head and that was it. I then progressed through to essentially becoming a senior but without the pay or title.
Then my position was swiped out from under me thanks to outsourcing via the buddy system (ie: someone in government gave their mate a contract) whereupon I was offered a role as assistant to the SQL Server DBAs since my skills would help them greatly. Funny thing there was that while they had more SQL Server skills, I think I had more in-depth general database administration knowledge and I did that for a couple of years before moving to other non-DBA roles.
In 2006, I find myself out of work and looking for a role and after 10+ years of DBA experience, I am getting knocked back for *junior* DBA roles because I didn't have the skills they wanted. I was interviewed by one mob who had their "expert" call me. One question I was asked was about the tempDB filling up and how this would impact the Master. I said that they shouldn't be on the same volume whereupon I was "corrected" in being told that the industry standard is to keep the system DBs and tempDB together in a common place. Of course I missed out on that role as well.
My take on the whole "Junior DBA" thing is that companies want top-shelf people and simply don't want to pay for them. I don't know what the market is like around the rest of the world but a normal/mid-level SQL Server DBA in Brisbane (Australia) is getting between Aud$65k-$75k while being expected to have all sorts of non-DBA skills and will not even be considered most of the time if they don't have any 2005.
What makes it worse is that there are developers around the place who have next to nothing in systems knowledge claiming to be a 'DBA'. Sorry to say it but I can be fairly pedantic about what constitutes a DBA and if someone should call themselves an Applications or Systems DBA. I don't care what anyone says but there is a world of difference between these two roles and the vast majority of those on interview panels (I prefer to call these admin types: "Fools") don't know the difference between their own arse and their elbow let alone the divide between classes of DBA.
As for recruiters (as mentioned in Steve's original article) - the majority of them aren't worth me crossing the road if they were on fire - unless I had a can of gasoline! I was messed about so much by so many recruiters that I now rank that industry down with car salesmen!
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
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Recruiters are scum, They are car salesmen. I can't tell you the number of recruiters for IT that operate out of some crappy office with everything on card tables. They look like that sceen in Boiler Room when they move to that temp office after being raided by the feds.
I will also agree that DBA is now a term that really doesn't cover the expectaions of the position correctly. Of course I think it best when someone could be a sys admin or Project Manager becomes a DBA. But then if your going to be Applications DBA then you should have Developer/programmer background. I like to keep em seprate and most enterprise companies do as well. 1 person keeps the server up, backed up, tuned, and plan for upgrades and DR. The other person worries about the databases and what's going on in the temp tables. worries about users stepping on each other and worries about the health of the app's that use the DB.
Now I've mentioned before that I think there's two types of DB users. 1 those that develop and use their own stuff on SQL and 2. those that just use an out of the box application. If your in a type 2 setting then it's possible you only need a good sys admin to keep things running. But you don't need a Application DBA at all.
SO I want to aske this question? Who should be paid more. The Application DBA or the System DBA?
For that matter can we come up with a definable criteria to determine the diff?
Side rant, I don't like the JR. or SR. part of a title. Maybe it fits with VP but that's about it. Either your're a DBA or your not. If your new then the only person that needs to know is your Manager. Besides that your status isn't anyone else's biz. But that's my point of view.
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Junior DBA, Senior DBA, Junior SQL developer, Senior SQL developer, most of these titles were based on how many years of experiences on the job? However, some people do the same thing for the last 10 years, for example, the DBA just backup and restore database, move stored procedures, DTS packages from development to production. That person did not know anything about writing SQL (maybe just simple SQL Statement select * from tableA), did not know how to do DTS package, did not know how to design database.
So even that person had 10 years experiences, was he a junior DBA or senior DBA?
Just liked we hired a SQL Developer and he said he was a DBA before, had over 10 years of SQL Server experiences, had worked on developing data warehouse. The first procedure he wrote had a cursor within a cursor. Was he a senior developer?
Number of years on the job does not mean number of years of experiences of what you know.
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Have to agree with the Loner there. # of years doing something does not indicate prowess or skills.
While I had been a DB2 Systems DBA for 8 years, I was still a newbie when it came to SQL Server until it came down to the tuning of SQL statements and being able to design & comprehend database structures. So, I was effectively a senior for DB2 but a junior for MSSQL. One day I will get around to bothering with Oracle
When I started, I remember calling the designers of SQL Server all the names that I imagined I could pry out of a Dutch Sailor because I said that it wasn't standard SQL and that Microsoft had, yet again, applied their own standards to something just to make their corner of the market happy.
What can I say? I was a purist
Of course, now that I am more used to the product, I am quite a fan of MSSQL and it keeps me interested because there is SO much to learn. The HARDEST part about coming from a mainframe background into a server world is the "just reboot it" mentality when things lock up - I hate that and will avoid it at every opportunity...
Maybe that was just the site I was at but I see it everywhere - instead of trying to resolve an issue, the box just gets cycled. Blecch.As for years of doing a job vs actual experience. I know a bloke who has been riding motorbikes for over 20 years - but the clown still runs into parked cars! Same with DBA's... you get people who've been in the industry for 10-15-20 years yet some of them are still worthy of the title of "passion fingers".
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
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Bert - was that boss short, fat, with pointy hair?
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No, but they are closely related
Take care,
Bert
"Speculations? I know nothing about speculations. I'm resting on certainties. I know that my Redeemer lives, and because He lives, I shall live also." - Michael Faraday
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I was actually hoping this editorial would bring to light some of the ways you might classify a junior DBA. It's traditionally been years of experience, which isn't a good measure. I think it should be skills based.
And we could call it DBA I, DBA II, DBA III, but traditionally it's been Jr and Sr to HR, so I stuck with the terms.
The idea was to give you some way to rate yourself and rate others, maybe help your career and get it growing.
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Junior DBA, Senior DBA, Application DBA - all these are titles which meant nothing.
For all these years, my title included 'programmer', 'Senior Programmer', 'Computer developer', 'technical specialist', 'Oracle ERP specialist', 'Senior Database developer', 'Data Warehouse Engineer', 'Application programmer'. None of the title reflected what I actually did.
A college graduate used to work for me so her title was junior programmer but her programming skill was much better than a lot of the senior programmer.
To measure a person's skill should not be based on the number of years experiences, this is the biggest technique of interview process. I knew one manager who asked only about 3 questions and he knew that person was good or not and he was right all the time. However most managers only hire losers.
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You got me interested, what were those questions?
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You got my attention too.
Only three questions and you know who's who?
-Can you elaborate ?
* Noel
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