September 6, 2013 at 10:23 am
As somebody else mentioned, it is crazy that people would seek a job they are completely unqualified for. My resume has never been a work of fiction and if I don't know something or have zero experience in a particular area I don't dance around it. Still, I know my limits and my strengths. I've done a few phone interviews where I've told the person(s) that I didn't think I was qualified for the position because at that time I didn't know enough about this or that. Fortunately this has been very rare and I've never been fired or demoted in my professional career. I'm proud of that and it certainly isn't due to good luck.
Cheers
September 6, 2013 at 10:28 am
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...
My own experience... 9 in 10 I interviewed that had certs were woefully ignorant of basic SQL Server knowledge. Funny thing was, the 1 in 10 frequently was a monster who probably knew a lot more than I did. I've just had bad experiences with Microsoft certs (that includes watching an acquaintance get 10 certs in 10 weeks using dumps).
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
September 6, 2013 at 10:28 am
WayneS (9/6/2013)
SQLRNNR (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...8 of 10 is probably pretty accurate. I have client after client that just terminated their "sr" dba with mcitp/mcdba and the former (and in some cases current) employee had no clue how to do a log backup and less clue on the recovery models.
I'd go just a wee bit further and say at least 8 of 10. Like, 8.5-8.9. Not quite 90%, but probably 85%.
Have you have seen my blog post on interview questions? A sr. DBA should be able to get at least 80% of those. So what does it say when you phone screen someone (using Grant's excellent questions from his blog), and they fail?
Like Jason mentioned, clients are getting rid of their incompetent DBAs.
Hmm... maybe I ought to start a side business offering DBA screening / interviewing. This would really help companies out.
Sounds like there is a market and you would do very well. Assuming that the candidates didn't read the same interview questions the entire world has access to and bone up for the interview! Of course, if their answers sound as though they are a parrot then you would know something is up and they are basically reading from a script.
Cheers
September 6, 2013 at 10:39 am
Ugh, I'm embarrased how long it took me to do fizzbuzz. Not hard, but my brain was still on the script I'm currently writing... That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. I'm going to check out the questions later tonight to see how I do.
September 6, 2013 at 1:03 pm
Grant Fritchey (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...My own experience... 9 in 10 I interviewed that had certs were woefully ignorant of basic SQL Server knowledge. Funny thing was, the 1 in 10 frequently was a monster who probably knew a lot more than I did. I've just had bad experiences with Microsoft certs (that includes watching an acquaintance get 10 certs in 10 weeks using dumps).
Agreed, I have basically said this on this forum for a very long time about the MS Certs and was called every nasty name in the book for doing so by alot of people on this very forum. Whatever, I can take it. Anyway, the truth be told in the end, it was true.. You can easily braindump most of these certs, rendering possessing them virtually worthless, and it puts the entire MS certification program into a suspect light as far as I'm concerned. What really surprises me about this whole recent behavior by Microsoft is that it even surprises people the way it has. This is typical for Mickeysoft IMHO. They fully realize that most people in the industry think these certs are suspect. However, they don't care what MOST PEOPLE THINK. They care about making money, bottom line, and this was obviously not a big enough moneymaker for them. So, they dropped it like a bad cold, and the heck with anyone who doesn't like it.. That should not surprise anyone.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
September 6, 2013 at 1:09 pm
Grant Fritchey (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...My own experience... 9 in 10 I interviewed that had certs were woefully ignorant of basic SQL Server knowledge. Funny thing was, the 1 in 10 frequently was a monster who probably knew a lot more than I did. I've just had bad experiences with Microsoft certs (that includes watching an acquaintance get 10 certs in 10 weeks using dumps).
Whoa. That puts the saying "Those who can do, those who can't get certified" in a whole new light for me. I like asking mostly open-ended, relevant questions to try to get some insight into their problem solving skills and knowledge of the product. Much easier to smell the BS.
September 6, 2013 at 2:25 pm
Grant Fritchey (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...My own experience... 9 in 10 I interviewed that had certs were woefully ignorant of basic SQL Server knowledge. Funny thing was, the 1 in 10 frequently was a monster who probably knew a lot more than I did. I've just had bad experiences with Microsoft certs (that includes watching an acquaintance get 10 certs in 10 weeks using dumps).
I fondly remember a colleague coming to me one day at the bank (it was about a week after I'd handed in my resignation). He waved a certification result paper in my face and announced loudly 'See, I know SQL better than you do.'
Problem was, one night the previous week I'd been working late and, while hunting for a pile of release documents on his desk, I'd found instead a large pile of braindumps for that very exam.....
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
September 6, 2013 at 2:40 pm
GilaMonster (9/6/2013)
Grant Fritchey (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...My own experience... 9 in 10 I interviewed that had certs were woefully ignorant of basic SQL Server knowledge. Funny thing was, the 1 in 10 frequently was a monster who probably knew a lot more than I did. I've just had bad experiences with Microsoft certs (that includes watching an acquaintance get 10 certs in 10 weeks using dumps).
I fondly remember a colleague coming to me one day at the bank (it was about a week after I'd handed in my resignation). He waved a certification result paper in my face and announced loudly 'See, I know SQL better than you do.'
Problem was, one night the previous week I'd been working late and, while hunting for a pile of release documents on his desk, I'd found instead a large pile of braindumps for that very exam.....
:hehe::hehe:
That about takes the cake.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
September 7, 2013 at 11:55 am
Jim P. (9/4/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
I really want to zero in on this comment because I had a similar experience with a fellow who was similarly surprised by a similar shortcut I was using on windows, but this fellow was also so far beyond me in Unix and database administration that his simple lack of trivial knowledge of a particular keyboard was completely meaningless, even if the fellow did routinely used windows during his daily tasks.Just wanted to offer a counterpoint on that one!
I can agree with your experience. There is a difference between OS shortcuts that some people just haven't seen yet and how they approach it. That was just one of several things that clued us in.
I'm not going say that was the sole clue, but it mostly happened in the 00's that he was claiming to be a Windows "god". But he had issues with building a basic batch file, automating reboots and much more. We had a UNIX dialer system. I knew more about it than him from prior experience. He never quite got it. We brought in an AS/400 system, he couldn't get it into the network correctly. There were other incidents.
I can agree with that, heck I wouldn't even task an MCM to do a dialup, network an AS/400, patch a c code base, run a DNS. On the other hand, I would assume that the ability to pass an MCM exam would mean that the individual can drill down into complex topics regarding a significant area of expertise, simply by the level it tests at. If that newly minted MCM had reason, I'm betting they could handle the other tasks if they had the time and resources to learn the subject matter and details needed for the tasks even though they weren't tested for it. Could they do this in a timely manner? I'm not so sure of that, probably depends on the task. Heck, it probably wouldn't be a reasonable request for some MCM's, they got databases to work on 🙂
I can also agree that if the MCSE does NOT test at a comparable skill level as the MCM (regardless of which subject matter we're testing for), we might not be able to expect the MCSE to handle areas outside of his area of expertise. But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want the MCSE to successfully test for the skill level that its design for, and it also doesn't mean that I don't hold out hope for successful tests being developed for various skill levels.
I bet Microsoft wants it too. Interesting writeup I found seems to indicate so:
http://borntolearn.mslearn.net/btl/b/weblog/archive/2010/09/07/what-were-they-thinking.aspx
Additionally, I am keenly aware of the percentage of DBA's getting their MCM up to this point, especially compared to the other level certifications, and I gotta say, that speaks volumes to me about how critical the cert is when so few DBA's are taking up Microsoft's offer in issuing it. I'm partial to fixing the certs that have more relevency. If you are at the pinnacle of your field, do you really really need that paper that says so?
Ok, here's my post, you may resume the name calling :hehe::hehe::hehe:
I was trying to use a simple example. My apologies.
I picked out the keyboard shortcut because it reminded me of a counterexample, and I apologise if you found it indicated disapproval of your post, I didn't intend as such so it was probably my mistake rather than yours.
September 7, 2013 at 3:28 pm
Great editorial Gail.
Grant Fritchey (9/5/2013)
I don't think anyone is saying that a good certification in this area can't be built. Just that so far, only one has been. And now it's gone with nothing in sight to replace it.
Actually there were two: MCM and MCA. Of course you couldn't attempt MCA unless you already had MCM. And both have now gone.
Tom
September 7, 2013 at 3:35 pm
ccd3000 (9/5/2013)
I think non-profits are probably better suited to tackle this like it's a literature exam (heuristics and human intervention oriented) better than a for-profit company which tend to approach it like it's a math test (easy to program and therefore cheaper to administrate).
I think you've go maths confused with arithmetic. With basic level arithmetic tests, what is wanted is rote learning - don't want someone to have to count on their fingers to add 2 and 3; somewhat higher level arithmetic tests need some technique to answer the questions in a reasonable time, but could still be marked by computer. Maths tests couldn't be marked by computer; a maths question is something like "provide an outline for a formal proof of the independence of the generalised continuum hypothesis in ZFC set theory" or "how would dropping the excluded middle axiom modify the model-theoretic semantics of the infinitary logics discussed by Helling in his thesis" or "discuss possible ways in which Church's Thesis might fail to be true" - questions whose meaning will be unknown to most people without a moderate knowledge of mathematics and 'probably can't be answered from rote learning, although more modern questions would be better, as Church's Thesis has been around for about 75 years and Cohen's proof dates from December 1963. I don't know if anything has been published on the other question yet, although as Helling's results date from 1966 it's possible that someone with an intuitionist bent will have looked at it so maybe it doesn't require the ability to do some original thinking, and original thinking is something which any decent maths test would have to cover.
Tom
September 9, 2013 at 2:12 am
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...
If you know nowt, you don't know what you don't know.
It may well be that people are lulled into believing that because they've passed the exam, they can do the job (in which case, they're clearly not cynical enough to survive in any IT role IMO - let alone DBA). It would seem that it works on some employers if those stats are close to correct. And there's a lot of hearsay to that effect.
I'm a DBA.
I'm not paid to solve problems. I'm paid to prevent them.
September 9, 2013 at 8:06 am
L' Eomot Inversé (9/7/2013)
ccd3000 (9/5/2013)
I think non-profits are probably better suited to tackle this like it's a literature exam (heuristics and human intervention oriented) better than a for-profit company which tend to approach it like it's a math test (easy to program and therefore cheaper to administrate).I think you've go maths confused with arithmetic. With basic level arithmetic tests, what is wanted is rote learning - don't want someone to have to count on their fingers to add 2 and 3; somewhat higher level arithmetic tests need some technique to answer the questions in a reasonable time, but could still be marked by computer. Maths tests couldn't be marked by computer; a maths question is something like "provide an outline for a formal proof of the independence of the generalised continuum hypothesis in ZFC set theory" or "how would dropping the excluded middle axiom modify the model-theoretic semantics of the infinitary logics discussed by Helling in his thesis" or "discuss possible ways in which Church's Thesis might fail to be true" - questions whose meaning will be unknown to most people without a moderate knowledge of mathematics and 'probably can't be answered from rote learning, although more modern questions would be better, as Church's Thesis has been around for about 75 years and Cohen's proof dates from December 1963. I don't know if anything has been published on the other question yet, although as Helling's results date from 1966 it's possible that someone with an intuitionist bent will have looked at it so maybe it doesn't require the ability to do some original thinking, and original thinking is something which any decent maths test would have to cover.
No, my general point is that math tests are easier to code. I'm certainly not saying all of them but thanks for adding some clarity to it.
March 12, 2014 at 4:15 pm
It saddens me to see someone whom I respect so much (Gail is like a mentor to us all) be so blown off by a company that owes her more than they will ever know (and apparently will ever care to know), but as much as I hate to see it - this does not surprise me in the least.
I have never been a very big supporter of any certification in our industry since Novell's CNE/CNI programs back in the 1990's. I obtained both of those certifications by working my butt off and studying like a mad man, and applying that discipline in the field, but when NetWare 4.x came out - they began to change their certification and education models to resemble the Microsoft Education and Training manuals. Most of us from back around '00 remember how brain dump sites were cropping up by the dozens every other week, and even with Microsoft's disclaimer of a lifetime ban from their certification program if caught didn't stop anyone who had the ethics of a snake oil salesmen from using them.
I'll tell you what I do value though - I value Gail, and others like her. I value the SQL conferences that come up (from SQL Saturday's to SQL Rally's to the SQL Summit), and I will continue to invest my monies into those events (now that I have dried behind the ears a bit, and have half an idea of how to be a pretty decent DBA). I was fortunate to attend SQL Rally down in Orlando FL back in 2010 with my mentor Jason Strate, and I can tell you that in the 4 days I attended the various sessions there - I had more materials (both new and not new...further explained) to take back to my workplace, than from any stinkin' Microsoft Certification course I have ever attended (study materials or otherwise...and yes - I still read BOL often, as well as nearly anything else I need from Google searches and other quick web searches when needing quick information).
I hope Microsoft finally learns their lesson and makes some accommodations to those who have always done for them, but that's just the way of the world and corporate businesses worldwide today. They care about you so long as their bottom line and coffers are full, but beyond that - you are just another number to them.
I love this community, and I always have (from the moment I found it). Don't let Microsoft (or anyone for that matter) ruin that for any of you.
Peace
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