September 5, 2013 at 9:58 am
Dave62 (9/4/2013)
I've been in the IT field for more than a quarter of a century and I decided early on that I would not put any effort into certifications. My career has been going very well with each new position a significant increase from the previous in pay, benefits, and working environment.I'm sure having certifications must be better than not having them but I'm also sure that, in my case at least, certifications are not necessary to succeed.
Been in IT since early 70's I have degrees from colleges and no certs. I thought about it at one time and almost went for one but the question of why kept coming up. My career also has gone very well over the past four decades and I have advanced both in position and in skills. If I were starting today I would seek getting certified in one or more areas. But back when I started certified meant something else.
There would be a certification I would seek today if it were offered from a reputable company and that is a certification in Problem Solving. This has been the one area over the years that has been the most critical and the one that has been required to be a success in all that I have done.
In short Microsoft fumbled the ball in how they released this information. But they often do such.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
September 5, 2013 at 11:18 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
I think that the scaling is clearly an interesting issue, with today's tech, I would keep the high proctoring ratios and then utilize technical leverage for the actual grading. Some of the labs I'm could imagine could use virtual machine technology, and I'd imagine its hard to cheat the evaluators out of whatever results the individual being tested generated on his machine image, especially if we're talking a larger focus on basics as I would hope would be the case.Sure, this is just talk, and I'm happy to be proved wrong, and any direction taken with certs have complications, gaming opportunities with countergaming measures required, economic and logistical concerns etc, and I think this is a darn interesting subject, and I appreciate Gails efforts in even generating the conversation with the writeup even as I am slanted more towards a downvote on the MCM itself.
I spent a good part of my career working in education so that probably influences my bias against the "only one functional cert" sort of thing I see going on, so when I see counterpoints against the lower level certs and examples of cheating observations, its sort of natural for me to imagine workarounds instead of just giving up on those certs.
You seem hung on this "one cert" thing. The issue is not that only one certification worthy of the name is possible. It's not. There could be 2 or 50. It's that at this date, there was only one certification on the Microsoft stack, specifically within SQL Server, that had an adequate amount of rigor associated with it to make it seem worth while. That was the MCM. The other existing certifications from Microsoft are just too easily gamed. And, based on hundreds of interviews over the years, are frequently gamed.
I don't think anyone is saying that a good certification in this area can't be built. Just that so far, only one has been. And now it's gone with nothing in sight to replace it.
And, note, I don't have an MCM (or any Microsoft certifications), so I'm not defending it from an insiders perspective. I've just read about the general methods used to run the test and I acknowledge that, at least to my uneducated eye, they look pretty good. Add to that the number of people I do know who passed the MCM that I respect because of already demonstrated knowledge, and that test & cert look even better.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
September 5, 2013 at 11:42 am
Grant Fritchey (9/5/2013)
... Add to that the number of people I do know who passed the MCM that I respect because of already demonstrated knowledge, and that test & cert look even better.
You make a good point for the MCM being a credible certification amongst the many others that are easily gamed.
You also are another fine example of a person who was able to become highly successful without any Microsoft certifications.
Conclusion: Certifications are not required to become successful.
September 5, 2013 at 11:46 am
Grant Fritchey (9/5/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
I think that the scaling is clearly an interesting issue, with today's tech, I would keep the high proctoring ratios and then utilize technical leverage for the actual grading. Some of the labs I'm could imagine could use virtual machine technology, and I'd imagine its hard to cheat the evaluators out of whatever results the individual being tested generated on his machine image, especially if we're talking a larger focus on basics as I would hope would be the case.Sure, this is just talk, and I'm happy to be proved wrong, and any direction taken with certs have complications, gaming opportunities with countergaming measures required, economic and logistical concerns etc, and I think this is a darn interesting subject, and I appreciate Gails efforts in even generating the conversation with the writeup even as I am slanted more towards a downvote on the MCM itself.
I spent a good part of my career working in education so that probably influences my bias against the "only one functional cert" sort of thing I see going on, so when I see counterpoints against the lower level certs and examples of cheating observations, its sort of natural for me to imagine workarounds instead of just giving up on those certs.
You seem hung on this "one cert" thing. The issue is not that only one certification worthy of the name is possible. It's not. There could be 2 or 50. It's that at this date, there was only one certification on the Microsoft stack, specifically within SQL Server, that had an adequate amount of rigor associated with it to make it seem worth while. That was the MCM. The other existing certifications from Microsoft are just too easily gamed. And, based on hundreds of interviews over the years, are frequently gamed.
I don't think anyone is saying that a good certification in this area can't be built. Just that so far, only one has been. And now it's gone with nothing in sight to replace it.
I'm perfectly willing to be wrong here, but I'm certainly getting the impression from at least one comment that indeed there is only one respectable cert (the MCM) and that there are reasons that this is apparently only feasable to test at the very high levels that would merit the economic and logistics somehow required for a reliable test. I would be absolutely delighted if I indeed misread any of the comments that may have from my reading implied this.
And, note, I don't have an MCM (or any Microsoft certifications), so I'm not defending it from an insiders perspective. I've just read about the general methods used to run the test and I acknowledge that, at least to my uneducated eye, they look pretty good. Add to that the number of people I do know who passed the MCM that I respect because of already demonstrated knowledge, and that test & cert look even better.
Just to reemphasis what I was hoping to relate, I would hope that tests at various skill levels could be just as trustworthy, as its at the skill levels below the 'master' level that I believe would be most relevent to me. It was my expressed disappointment in this thread that I saw at least one post dismissing the practicality of developing trustworthy testing at any other skill level besides the MCM, and I believe it was my focusing on this that might have lead you to believe that I'm "hung up on this one cert thing" when in actuality this is not how I'd like things to be.
Hope that clears things up for you a bit.
September 5, 2013 at 12:05 pm
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/5/2013)
Just to reemphasis what I was hoping to relate, I would hope that tests at various skill levels could be just as trustworthy, as its at the skill levels below the 'master' level that I believe would be most relevent to me. It was my expressed disappointment in this thread that I saw at least one post dismissing the practicality of developing trustworthy testing at any other skill level besides the MCM, and I believe it was my focusing on this that might have lead you to believe that I'm "hung up on this one cert thing" when in actuality this is not how I'd like things to be.Hope that clears things up for you a bit.
I agree with you, tests at other levels could be just as trustworthy. But, currently, they aren't. There was a single trustworthy test. Was it at too high a level? Maybe. But it absolutely was trustworthy. Now there are none. And I think that's lamentable. Further, I think, based on what I've been reading, that is everyone's main complaint. You seemed to be reading into the cries about the loss of the only trustworthy test as statements that it could only, ever, be the one trustworthy test. I think there are two different things under discussion.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
September 5, 2013 at 12:24 pm
Grant Fritchey (9/5/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/5/2013)
Just to reemphasis what I was hoping to relate, I would hope that tests at various skill levels could be just as trustworthy, as its at the skill levels below the 'master' level that I believe would be most relevent to me. It was my expressed disappointment in this thread that I saw at least one post dismissing the practicality of developing trustworthy testing at any other skill level besides the MCM, and I believe it was my focusing on this that might have lead you to believe that I'm "hung up on this one cert thing" when in actuality this is not how I'd like things to be.Hope that clears things up for you a bit.
I agree with you, tests at other levels could be just as trustworthy. But, currently, they aren't. There was a single trustworthy test. Was it at too high a level? Maybe. But it absolutely was trustworthy. Now there are none. And I think that's lamentable. Further, I think, based on what I've been reading, that is everyone's main complaint. You seemed to be reading into the cries about the loss of the only trustworthy test as statements that it could only, ever, be the one trustworthy test. I think there are two different things under discussion.
I think the line of thought I've been encountering is that while it is indeed POSSIBLE to make other testing levels trustyworthy, it was neither practical or desireable for any number of unavoidable reasons, which was the sentiment I was hoping to make a counterargument to.
But on the subject of the MCM, I don't object to its disappearance, so no its certainly not MY complaint, but it did inspire a part of my COUNTER complaint so to speak 🙂
Don't worry about it, I'm probably in the minority here and its not unknown territory for me!
September 5, 2013 at 1:59 pm
Don't worry about it, I'm probably in the minority here and its not unknown territory for me!
You are the loud person in the quiet library. The SUV in the compact car slot. The fragmented index in a almost perfect database. The kazoo in a orchestra.
😛
September 5, 2013 at 2:04 pm
chrisn-585491 (9/5/2013)
Don't worry about it, I'm probably in the minority here and its not unknown territory for me!
You are the loud person in the quiet library. The SUV in the compact car slot. The fragmented index in a almost perfect database. The kazoo in a orchestra.
😛
Oh no! I said I was in the minority, I never said I was wrong :hehe::hehe::hehe:
September 5, 2013 at 3:02 pm
Oh no! I said I was in the minority, I never said I was wrong
You're not wrong, you're just ignorant of the significance of the situation and being trollingly obtuse. You're "That Guy".
I don't have a stake in this matter other than I still do plenty of Windows development. But I'm friends and colleagues with several dozen people that have been hurt.
There's plenty of blogs and a few podcasts that explain this event and background in detail. There's people that have lost $$$$$ and jobs and a lot more people that have lost trust in a corporation that should have handled this manner professionally.
September 5, 2013 at 3:31 pm
Microsoft's move in this area does not surprise me.
Simply put, they were not making money on this program. They probably are making lots of money on the lesser certs, although they change these up every couple years or so.
Microsoft seems to be undergoing a transformation. The true innovation is not occurring in the enterprise-focused products, and a significant amount of money is being spent on consumer-focused products.
Can you say "we are now a wireless phone company?" Microsoft never really competed with Apple. They will be now!
Michael L John
If you assassinate a DBA, would you pull a trigger?
To properly post on a forum:
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/61537/
September 5, 2013 at 4:15 pm
chrisn-585491 (9/5/2013)
Oh no! I said I was in the minority, I never said I was wrong
You're not wrong, you're just ignorant of the significance of the situation and being trollingly obtuse. You're "That Guy".
Take it up with Microsoft if you feel so strongly about it, I'm not the one cancelling the program. I'm here for interesting discussion, heck, even to be persuaded if someone can make a compelling case on why I should reconsider my position. What you typed however is not the compelling argument that I was hoping for.
edit: fixed quote
September 5, 2013 at 4:54 pm
This reminds of the late 70s, early 80s when car manufactures started making their products largely unserviceable by what we called “service stations” back in the day (see many of them now?). Aren’t you more likely to trust the auto dealership for your more sophisticated service needs when they are seen as the only ones with the know-how?
Microsoft is clearly trying to discourage the development of true experts in their enterprise solutions in a similar fashion and they in fact have the cards to do as they wish.
But what they don’t have is communities like this. They can’t still these voices as long as we have the willingness to acquire and share expertise.
(Steve, you keep SSC out of their cloud, understand?!!).
September 5, 2013 at 7:28 pm
Michael L John (9/5/2013)
Microsoft's move in this area does not surprise me.Simply put, they were not making money on this program. They probably are making lots of money on the lesser certs, although they change these up every couple years or so.
Microsoft seems to be undergoing a transformation. The true innovation is not occurring in the enterprise-focused products, and a significant amount of money is being spent on consumer-focused products.
Can you say "we are now a wireless phone company?" Microsoft never really competed with Apple. They will be now!
Time has proven (since the early '70s) Microsoft has no loyalty to anyone other than themselves. Developer products introduced, built up, then dumped. Consumer products the same (both paid and free), now certifications and subscriptions following the same trend.
I am in the same boat as a few others, starting in the early '70s with no "current certifications" but a decent background. Unfortunately, now those hiring are going to have to come up with a more realistic measure of an incumbent's true skills other than a piece of paper. We don't like it or how it was done, but Microsoft may have done the industry a service by cutting off another "piece of paper" that may end up being irrelevant in the incumbent's actual position, several others have mentioned this in their posts that they never actually used the material in the position for which they were employed.
September 6, 2013 at 7:10 am
pparsons (9/5/2013)
We don't like it or how it was done, but Microsoft may have done the industry a service by cutting off another "piece of paper" that may end up being irrelevant in the incumbent's actual position, several others have mentioned this in their posts that they never actually used the material in the position for which they were employed.
The MCM is not like the MCITP/MCDBA/MCSE, and is not just another piece of paper. I have yet to see a reference from an MCM that said they did not use the skills necessary on that exam in the real world.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
September 6, 2013 at 7:39 am
What you typed however is not the compelling argument that I was hoping for.
It's not my job to educate you. I'm not going to do your homework. I'm not going to give you a "brain dump" of what numerous people have posted on blogs. But I will suggest you listen to this podcast to understand the value of the program and the various repercussions :
http://www.theucarchitects.com/podcasts/audio/podcast_027.mp3
When the very best at their craft say there is an issue, I tend to listen to them and try to understand what's at stake.
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