IT Unions
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In a recent editorial on certification, the discussion veered towards unions and how they would or wouldn't work in IT. I've long thought that unions would be good for IT, both staff and companies, but it would be hard to get the people that are on top, the writers, speakers, those that are seen as elite, to get people to unionize. After all, they command the top dollar and bringing in some scale to wages wouldn't benefit them.
Then I saw this editorial in eWeek about IT Unions and a possible model that was intriguing. The actor's union, especially those for voice actors, has a model that makes some sense. Artistic, individual, not necessarily star power, but definitely valuable, though each person with their own rate.
That sounds a lot like consultants in the IT industry. It doesn't take a much longer stretch to see all IT workers, network admins, developers, even help desk people, as those that the union could apply to. And with various rates for different individuals.
Maybe then we'd could have our own IT board that rates, certifies, even grants levels for the various disciplines. We could form our own boards and committees to develop certification testing instead of the vendors. It could be a very interesting change for this industry.
I know there are lots of people that wouldn't like it. And we'd get incompetent people being defended by the union, and possibly companies being stuck with people they couldn't easily fire. However that seems a lot like today's corporations. Incompetent workers, HR makes it hard to fire someone as it is, and the certification programs are geared more as profit centers than groups looking to further their industry.
I still like the craftsman model better, but this doesn't seem like a bad idea.
Steve
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Let me guess...you voted for John Kerry. I have been in this profession for 37 years and the only IT shop I know of that was unionized was Ford Motor Company. If that is an example of how our profession should operate, I hope I am long dead before it happens!
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If you want unions in IT, just take a good look at the major airlines and GM and see what kind of mess they're in. IMHO, unions have pretty much destroyed the automobile industry in the US over the last 3 decades.
And that's not the only argument against them. Given the current job market and with the higher level of wages and benefits that unions command, outsourcing and off-shoring would certainly skyrocket if IT workers joined unions. HP just announced that they're laying of 15,000 people. I'd be willing to be that the number would be double that if the workers were unionized.
That's just a couple of considreations, but I myself would be extremely wary of IT workers organizing.
My hovercraft is full of eels.
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I would have to agree with the previous responders. IT unions would crank up the pressure to outsource off-shore by orders of magnitude. Now is definitely not the time to start work slow-downs, sit-ins or department-wide "blue flu" epidemics. 1998 was the last time that there was so much demand for us that IT workers could write their own check. Now American IT professionals are competing with all of the well-trained and experienced foreign IT professionals who have returned to their home countries. They can now provide very good service for a lot less (up-front) money. Unions would only make the off-shore option more attractive.
Hmmm...then again if you meant International Terrorist when you said "IT", I'd have to change my position. I think they should definitely join unions. I suspect that the "73 Virgins" is not what you would call a "guaranteed" benefit. A strike is definitely in order until the Mullahs can prove they have them in the bank.
Is it Friday yet?
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Coming from a place where unions never worked (is there such a place where they actually did ? ) I am openly AGAINST them in any form or fashion. It is your goverment responsability to regulate (and audit) those on top that try to get advantage from those on the food chain lower levels but when things work the other way around inefficiencies will be promoted, envy will flourish, favouritism will grow and things will go south regardless!!
NO to IT Unions
Just my $0.02
* Noel -
I've read the article IT Unions and it shows luck of understanding economics. Unfortunately, it cannot be "explained" in a nice soundbite, it has to be learned and comprehended. I can point those curious enough to http://www.mises.org/articles.aspx for a good start.
Unions are just bad, they are bad for people moral, they are bad for economy, they are bad for the country as a whole. Previous posters mentioned GM and Ford. Think of Russia for a minute - in words of Lenin "professional union is a school of communism" (he knew what he was talking about), and we all know what communists have done in the past 70 years, and look where Russia is now - it's a third world country with a bunch of nukes. While this seems like quite a leap from IT unionization, that exactly where it leads, and GM and Ford will show us the way.
NO to unions!
Vadim (yes, I used to live in the USSR)
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Normally, I find myself agreeing with Steve on most issues. And I refuse to jump on his case too much since he's on vacation and not here to defend himself.
But I'd be surprised if too many people take his position on this issue.That said, I do see the value of having some form of unified guild/craftsman/mentor/whatever hierarchy in place that would develop standards for certifications deployments, and development, but I don't think that a union is the best (or even a good) way to achieve this. And call me crazy, but I can't forsee a time when Microsoft, Oracle, Sybase, et al would be willing to relinquish their stakes in the certifiactions and standards processes completely to the user and development communities.
In a perfect world you'd never see blank sa passwords, poor or non-existant DR plans, lack of normalization, (insert your pet peeve here) ad naseum, but we all know how far from perfect this world is.
My hovercraft is full of eels.
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For another long-term case study, look at the effect unions had in the UK - where is the motor industry, the coal industry, etc? They abused their original purpose and were cut down (rightly) for it. We (I'm a Brit in the US) had unions for IT folks in the UK. They took the money and did nothing... Just another tax! As far as certification goes, unless they are strongly backed by the Companies originating the disciplines/streams/products/languages/etc., what will they really be worth? How many participating Companies/bodies will we need to decide what a Certification will comprise, and how long will it take for them to reach concensus, and will their certification mean anything by the time it reaches the presses? Certification is a good thing and I'm glad that MS is moving toward "show me in practice" and away from book-learning only - there are many who can talk it and regurgitate it, but can't apply and create for toffies!
IT Unions - bad plan.
Certification - good, but must be relevant and based on practical expertise.
Just my 2-pennyworth...
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I'm all for it if there is some standardization and apprentice/journeyman level training. If it's strictly for political reasons and to protect crappy workers, than NO. But Steve is right. Crappy people are pretty protected nowadays.
A question for others: Have those who are against the idea ever belonged to a union? I have worked under both situations. My experience has been that the majority of union workers (where I've worked) are very good at what they do, and work very hard. There are very few 'bad eggs'. That said, the same is probably true within any typical corporation. And I've seen that both types of workplaces can get rid of you if they really want to.
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Hello,
If you go Union go SEIU or Teamsters. Another good step would be to cut way back on H1 Visas in the US. Ban Canadians and put quotas on all others.
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>> Have those who are against the idea ever belonged to a union? <<
Lori, I have and I can't put into words how much I suffered !!! Believe me it all seems to "start" well and then it becomes HELL.
Oh, and yes I've lived in a comunist country before, have you ?
* Noel -
Have unions ever worked? I would suggest reading a history of the labor movement in the United States. Many of the benefits of employees in the US are the direct or indirect result of the labor movement. Child labor laws, the 40-hour workweek, retirement plans and profit sharing plans are directly related to the labor movement.
The HR department makes it almost impossible to fire anyone. The HR policies are designed to keep the company from breaking the law. The Civil Rights ACT of 1964 barring discrimination in the workplace protects the rights of minorities. If your company is not involved in discrimination they can fire anyone they want to.
Unions have wrecked Ford and GM. GM is the largest producers of cars in the world. The problems a Ford can be attributed to mis-management. Peter Drucker uses Ford of an example of how not to run a business. The present CEO of Ford (William C. Ford 
has undertaken management reforms that are fixing many of the problems with Ford. Note these reforms are at the management level.HP is laying of 15,000 employees. check here http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/rssstory.mpl/business/3275243 most of the layoffs will be in the US because Europe has stronger Unions. Most of these cuts will be in areas other than IT. http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/tech/news/3273608 it should be noted that the cuts are about 10% of the total workforce a number that is about equal to normal employee turnover. Judging from the stock price announcing the layoffs may have been a move to keep the stock price near its 52 week high.
Does any of this mean that IT should unionize. Probably not in general most employees in the IT field have good terms and conditions relating to work.
Mike
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No Unions! I'm all for standardization and uniform certifications...but unions stopped being useful in the U.S. back in the 1960s. Not they appear to be all about political power. We don't need an IT Jimmy Hoffa!! Oh wait, we already have Bill Gates..
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Well, the Bill Gates comment was over the top but in general, I agree whole heartedly. I did find this comment by Mr. Jones in his editorial most interesting:
"I've long thought that unions would be good for IT, both staff and companies, but it would be hard to get the people that are on top, the writers, speakers, those that are seen as elite, to get people to unionize."
Do you honestly believe that those that write and speak about SQL are "elite" ? I for one have met more dolts that speak and write about SQL than anywhere else in the community. No thanks, I'll stick to working with the DBAs in the trenches actually coding and administering.
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Points well taken Michael, and thanks for the links. And granted, many of today's improvements in the workplace are due to unions which came at a time when they were sorely needed. Does that mean unions (particularly in IT) are relevant today? I'm not so sure.
I think a few paragraphs from the first article bear repeating:
"The thinking in Europe is, employees are stakeholders and shouldn't be subject to arbitrary firings for economic reasons," said Mussa, now a senior fellow at the Institute for International Economics in Washington.
Organized labor is much stronger in many European countries than in the U.S., where private-sector union membership has dwindled to about 7.9 percent of the work force from a peak of about 35 percent in 1953. In Germany, by contrast, companies with more than 2,000 employees must give workers equal representation with shareholders on their supervisory boards.
A World Bank report this year found that it is four times more difficult to fire an employee in France and Germany than in the U.S., and is even harder in Italy. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development concluded in 2003 that the U.S. had the weakest employment-protection laws of 28 countries it surveyed.
Unions or not, what a concept: Seeing employees as stakeholders? Brilliant!!! Will it ever happen in the US? I should live so long. It's not surprising to me in the least that the US has the weakest protection laws for employees, but I still don't see unions as an effective way of addressing job security.
And from reading the article, I didn't get the impression that European's positions with HP were necessarily protected, but just that it was going to take longer get rid of them. At least that's my take.
Good one, Dave. Are you saying one day Gates will be buried in Giants Stadium?
My hovercraft is full of eels.
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