Is Computer Science Dead?
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I can't help posting another one
how many of the top 100 richest business people in the world has a MBA or evan an BBA? knowledge is about learning, of course with self motivation and commitment. if we follow the line of richest business people, then we don't need any kind of university education.
There is nothing wrong with the idea of "self taught" expert. but the danger is that many many people nowadays have the perception that they can self taught to be a good developer. Do you know that since IBM published the rate of failure in software projects in the industry in the 80's, there is not much a improvement as the statistic shows in this 21th century.
Look back these 25 years, the fundamental concepts and technology actually haven't changed much. what are the invention in the past 10 years, 5 years?
We need to brush up the CS training, we need people to do research and promote innovation. otherwise, the computing industry will soon be controlled by package tools/software. People will be trained to program plugins, packaged component only.
ken.
p.s. I've heard people saying Relational DB, OOD are just common sense. but how many can really design a good RDB, OO model?
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Computer science is not dead but it is not as popular as 10 years ago in college, thanks to all the big companies outsourced to other countries. The employment outlook affects the students choosing their major which right now is biology and biochemistry. Also in most colleges, they are totally out of touch with the real world. When the company hires a new graduates, you basically have to train them all over again.
In the other thread, a lot more women also exit IT business. The parents do not encourage their daughters to major in CS.
Right now I am working on a project, there are twenty contractors and 5 in house employees. I am the only 'woman'.
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Read "After the Gold Rush: Creating a True Profession of Software Engineering" by Steve McConnell.
I think it explains the shortfalls of a CS degree versus what is really needed.
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Yes, college is not teaching development skills. They are teaching languages. IMO, the first year of a CS degree should not involve any programming. The reason I'm still around is because I know the basics, and I can apply that in any new language that comes along. The reason I can get a job is because I have a degree. It doesn't matter that my degree is in Biology (liberal arts, even). I find myself applying skills I learned at McDonald's way more often than anything I learned in college. My college education comes in handy in trivia contests.
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Its not dead yet but it is dying. Why, because opportunities are drying up. Bill Gates and all the major tech companies are pushing for unlimited visas for tech workers. This has put a lot of US workers out of jobs not for lack of skill but because most of the visa holders are paid at least $12,000 less than a US worker according to Bureau of Labor Statistics figures. I personally have seen people replaced by less skilled visa holders numerous times just because they were less expensive. I have also seen good CS people replaced by less skilled Americans as well to be fair. No matter, too many companies today want to develop software on the cheap. It is hard to justify the investment in education if you know that you are in competition for jobs in a market that is being flooded with visa holders and that you can be put out of work by lesser skilled individuals for no other reason than cost. It is not difficult to see that the prevailing wage will eventually be depressed to the point where it is not worth the expense of a CS education.
Karen Gayda
MCP, MCSD, MCDBA
gaydaware.com -
There is a backlash on that as well. In my last two jobs I've been told that they'd rather close the company than hire another person from India. Some managers are realizing that even though my price tag is higher, I am a better value, because you will get things done right and faster. Some managers will never realize that, but it's their problem. It's not about getting a CS degree... it's about getting any degree, and paying attention to the basic skills you will be learning in college, not the subjects you are studying. College is preparation for working in the upper levels of the adult world. Military is an acceptable alternative. Both things teach basic skills that every adult should have.
How to organize yourself, how to research a problem, how to determine what the problem actually is, how to show up on time, meet deadlines, cram when you have to, write proper English... these are the kind of things that I see a lot of youngsters failing on, especially that last one. Once those things are mastered, then it's time to learn math, logic, and specific computer-related topics. High schools are too busy being parents to teach those things, but it used to be pretty hard to graduate without being able to read and write. Nowadays it seems like most college graduates can't even write well. I'm not a stickler for perfect grammar or anything, but being understandable and clear seems to be a big problem.
Any leetspeek or IM-text on a resume gets it immediately round-filed.
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(I've heard people saying Relational DB, OOD are just common sense. but how many can really design a good RDB, OO model?)
CS is not dead but sick because of college tenure which leaves people who don't know any current languages or systems in charge. How will that change I don't know Microsoft platform education is not readily available in colleges and it is very expensive compared to Java or C++, I think Microsoft should do more on college campuses especially with Managed C++ and C#.
I also think those old men discourage women, I remember my conversation with a college CS program dean, that I needed 15hours of C++ before I can take PL/SQL. Some of the reasons I love the US pre Google a few Boolean on Yahoo and Uncle Sam's copy of ANSI 1989 free and the rest is history.
I model objects and data by hand as needed, I love data but use objects my current job I don't do any data just objects my last job was design so data was also limited.
Hey Bob I program VCR but then I grow up with CRTs all over the house.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie -
I'm not a stickler for perfect grammar or anything, but being understandable and clear seems to be a big problem.
Yes, I totally agree! Being an effective worker involves more than simply coding, it also involves effectively conveying your ideas to others. Grammar is becoming really bad for some reason; I guess people are more rushed and rely solely on spell-checkers now. These people really should start proofreading their work for missing words, correctly spelled words that make no sense in the context of their sentence, etc.
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Yes... computer science is dead even if you have a degree in it (not you personnally, just a general observation).
I've interviewed many a person that have Masters degrees in the field and a couple of PHD's to boot... none of the Masters could tell me what 1416 is in Decimal and a couple of them couldn't even tell me what 23 is. None of them could tell me what 11001010 was even when I split it up as 1100 1010 and none of them could tell me what 20 was.
One of these geniuses advertised himself as a "9 out of 10 in both SQL Server 2000 and Oracle 9i2" but couldn't tell me how to get the current date and time using SQL.
Also interviewed several "GUI Ninja's"... some had degrees in CS and some did not... out of the 7 I interviewed, only one could answer the following question correctly and he was almost a high-school drop out...
You have a user editable form on the screen with a "SAVE" button... the user fills out the form on the screen and clicks the "SAVE" button... if that action takes a bit longer than expected, the user is likely to click the "SAVE" button again. How do YOU, as a GUI developer, keep this impatient user from saving two identical records?
I got answers like "rollback the first transaction and save the second" and "don't worry about it, the DB guys will take care of it", etc. I even had one guy tell me how he'd write code to do a merge in the data base...
Only the almost high-school drop out got it right without any hesitation... disable the "SAVE" button on the first click.
Yeah, I know... lots of the math is "taken care of" by the code... but don't you think that someone with a Master's degree in CS should know what 23 or even 20 is? Heh... If you really want to see some deer in headlights, ask for an explanation of what an Exclusive OR does
or how to determine the number of binary searches it takes to find a unique row in an ordered set.So, let me rephrase a bit... according to the people I've had to interview, computer science isn't really dead... just the degrees are.
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
You're kidding, right? A person with a Masters degree in CS doesn't know what 23 or 20 is? They couldn't convert 1416 or 11001010 to base 10? These seem like such basic tasks for a CS person, especially if you have a Masters degree. I want confirmation.
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"You're kidding, right? A person with a Masters degree in CS doesn't know what 23 or 20 is? They couldn't convert 1416 or 11001010 to base 10? These seem like such basic tasks for a CS person, especially if you have a Masters degree. I want confirmation. "
I totally agree, hell even the undergrads should be able the answer simple questions posed here. I have seen degrees handed to people who take 3 or 4 tries to pass even basic logic corses. When people ask the question "Is Computer Science Dead?", I answer no, but the if the educational institutions don't strengthen their requirements it will be.
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Nope... not kidding. THAT level of intelligence or training was, apparently, missing. And, it's really hard for me to think that maybe I didn't ask the question correctly because I drew those on the white board and said "Please convert those values to base 10". When most of them saw the 1416, they asked me what the 16 meant.
Even after I explained that it meant the "14" was in hex, they still had no clue.Someone else on this thread said something about learning machine language (Assembly helps but not "root" enough)... I'm a firm believer in learning hand-assembled machine language where you have to calculate the values of branches both forwards and backwards. I think it aids in developing critical thinking and teaches critical development skills just like learning math before you're allowed to use a calculator does.
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
"I'm a firm believer in learning hand-assembled machine language where you have to calculate the values of branches both forwards and backwards. I think it aids in developing critical thinking and teaches critical development skills just like learning math before you're allowed to use a calculator does."
0x506C75732C2069742068656C707320796F7520756E6465727374616E6420766172696F757320
6E756D626572696E672073797374656D7320616E6420656E636F64696E672E
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there are a lot of junk degree out there. i've seen master degree program would accept microsoft exam certificate as transfer credit. I've seen the MSc people can't do a normalized db schema.
but that only tells you the failure of the program. The formal training in all aspects of CS is still vital, it is a matter of quality control of CS program.
my point is the market and job seekers just have the wrong perception that an industry certificate or training can just replace the CS program. now don't take me wrong, MCSD, MCDBA, MCSE etc could still be valuable in showing the competency of using MS product. but that can't replace the foundation training as in CS degree. there are lots of these "certified professional" who don't know the basic architecture of a PC.
by the way, i am a MCSD, MCDBA and i know what i get from these courses.
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There's been a lot of neat discussion here...but... I recently worked with a young man who was obviously way more educated that i am.... but... we were qa'ing a product trying to meet yet another impossible deadline, with customer breathing down neck, and payment on the line.... yet for every bug fix in the current code I made to get the system OUT THE DOOR this kid would be writing objects, methods, creating new tables, new columns.... he didn't seem to be comprehending the word "PAYCHECK" or the fact that every bit of new code he wrote and old code he re-wrote had to be tested just as thoroughly tested....I left the company then.
What I learned from those low-level assembler and 'c' years was something that should (opinion, stinks) be taught to every CS student in cs101.... 'a computer does three things, 1> takes data in, 2> tinks about it and 3> gives it back improved. Any computer. Any processor. Any application! Anything else I have learned over the years about ood, oops, C++, JAVA, UML, ERD's, ad infinitum, was simply to help me make the 3 things happen better. They were not the end in themselves. All those things are designed to make the computer work better/faster/more efficiently, and ultimately to get me PAID!
Perhaps a vetting process... something like "ok you think well, you're in, sorry you think too much, you're out"
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