October 25, 2002 at 8:32 am
Having never used a computer till 3 years ago(mind U, i'm in my mid 30's), i personally studied and trained myself in SQLServer. After getting the qualification, it only took me 3 weeks to get a job. No experience, but based on the fact that i was ready and enthusiastic was enough. In my team of 2, we currently manage 74 sqlservers of all platforms(6.5,7.0 and 2000)and no major disasters yet i might add.
Everyone is talking of experience, but where would U get it from if one is not given a job? Most IT personnel i know are from non IT environments. I have a degree in Politics and this has not limited my enthusiasm in any way.
Yes, certification does not indicate one's level of competence, but does having massive experience automatically mean competence or know-it-all? Show me a Dba that is not learning something everyday.... that is why this forum exists. I think each individual should have that benefit of doubt and not stereo-typing which is the case here.
October 27, 2002 at 12:02 pm
I think thats a valid point.
Essentially all education is a means to quantify someone. I think a degree provides more into someone as a person. When employing somone when you have no experience then you have to base it on something.
Simon Sabin
Co-author of SQL Server 2000 XML Distilled
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904347088
Simon Sabin
SQL Server MVP
http://sqlblogcasts.com/blogs/simons
October 31, 2002 at 8:55 am
So, what is the general consensus here? That certifications are not of much value unless there is a lab to supplement the certification? Or that a degree is better because of the amount of hours devoted to the curriculum? Or is there some combination here?
Labs used during hiring get tricky because of the possibilites of discrimination suits. My personal is, I lean toward the experience and asking the correct questions during the interview process, which are not necessarily technical in nature. It is disappointing when a hiring company uses only certifications, degrees and labs to screen applicants and leave out one of the most critical selections - experience.
October 31, 2002 at 12:55 pm
Some of you talk like all DBA's have to be guru's to carry the title. Not so. If you need a guru for a senior position hire the guy that started on mainframe legacy databases in the 50's and has been through Oracle, Sybase, DB2, MS SQL. Experience counts!
But a guy/gal has got to start somewhere, and IT departments are notorious for lack of career development. Few IT departments have clear career ladders defined for moving into advanced positions and fewer have plans to actively prepare candidates for future assignments.
Example: you work in IT and you think you want to become a DBA. So you talk to some project managers who use DBA's and ask them what you ned to do to become a working entry-level DBA. They tell you that all you have to do is get five years of experience in a production situation, master T-SQL, prove that you have mastered stored procedures, demonstrate mastery of triggers, have created at least two data mining OLAP cubes, and tuned SQL queries for maximum performance.
The guy with a BS in computer science may never have taken any coursework in realtional databases. The guy with DBA certification has at least been exposed to the principles of the RDBMS on which he is certified.
I took the training, studies on my own and passed the tests. Along the way I learned about OLAP cubes and data mining. However I have never used this in a job situation. Am I a DBA. Yes. Am I a guru? No. Can I build you a data mining app? No on the fly, but I have the basics I need to learn how.
So hire a guru for a guru job and hire a well trained beginner for a beginner's job.
October 31, 2002 at 3:50 pm
I have a BS in Computer Science, and I am an MCP for SQL Server (I passed on exam). I would like to obtain an MCDBA, and I'm considering going for my Masters. I passed the MCP test with little studying because I already had experience. I agree that experience is probably the most important factor in hiring/promoting someone, and that the paper stuff needs to be taken with discretion. I would still recommend to others to prepare for and take the exam, because when I did, I learned a lot of things that I've been able to use on the job. Don't depend on it getting you a job, but take advantage of it if you can.
For those who do hiring, remember that there is no real 'silver bullet' for hiring people. Not even experience, as valuable as that is. It has to be the right experience, and it has to go with the right person. The one with the most experience may still be an idiot, or impossible to work with. You have to consider each person individually, and you have to consider your team and its situation. I've worked with a PhD who had no concept of what we were working on; and I've worked with college students who could do amazing things with a computer (some were just starting school). I work with one guy who has an MCSE, but doesn't understand what Windows Services are, and I work with another guy who has no degree, but who is very competent at developing web stuff. He's even taking the lead in moving over to .NET.
There's my 2-cents worth.
James C Loesch
James C Loesch
November 11, 2002 at 2:24 am
I feel that Experience is important. This will enable one to perform when the requirement calls for it. On the other hand Certification will also be important because, this proves your Credit without showing what you can do. This is talking in terms of how MS really wants us to get Certified (through experience & careful Observation).
If you look visit http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/mcp/benefits/hire.asp, there are a lot of case studies. They lay their emphasis on Certification. It is something like a baseline checklist. I feel that one should pursue certification and learn by experience. Rememeber that one person cannot know everything. So it's a process of learning. The certification part is a base and does nor really prove that one is an expert. I started preparing for 70-229 as part of my MCSD and learning really helped. I now know a lot of things that I did not when I started. This has also started an interest in me to learn about SQL Server. This is how I got myself registered in this group. Eventually I will learn a lot, but when I do my Job Switch next time, I know that my MCSD will speak for itself.
Best Regards,
Trevor Benedict R
Microsoft Certified Professional (VB)
Best Regards,
Trevor Benedict R
Microsoft Certified Solution Developer
November 12, 2002 at 5:13 am
Interesting reading
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/28040.html
Simon Sabin
Co-author of SQL Server 2000 XML Distilled
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904347088
Simon Sabin
SQL Server MVP
http://sqlblogcasts.com/blogs/simons
November 12, 2002 at 5:32 pm
Hi Simion,
That was an interesting article. I think the focus should be on the term "Engineer" and "Systems Engineer".
Best Regards,
Trevor Benedict R
Microsoft Certified Solution Developer
November 13, 2002 at 10:21 pm
I agree with most of the guys but i can agree more with Arsenal....I really appreciate his comments...
I am a SQL DBA for 2.5 years now and I am thinking whether or not I shud take the Certs. I dont say I am a Guru or something ...But I get to learn a lot each day on my work...
Arvind
Arvind
Arvind
November 15, 2002 at 6:19 am
Follow up article http://theregister.co.uk/content/28/28109.html
Simon Sabin
Co-author of SQL Server 2000 XML Distilled
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904347088
Simon Sabin
SQL Server MVP
http://sqlblogcasts.com/blogs/simons
November 18, 2002 at 2:14 am
Hi,
Its interesting to read. Circumstances differes from people to people. I am a SQLDBA and MCSD. Why I pursue certification is for the following reasons.
1. I was out of job for 4 months during the first half of year 2001. Then I studied for MCSD. It just opened my eyes on what I dont know. I then relalised that I have not used many technologies which I should have used in my previous projects.
2. In the present job, my manager wants me to work only with SQL Server 2000. Nothing else. Even though I got more experience in software development(15 years)than him. He is a Business Analyst who knows only Excel in and out(not VBA). In this circumstances I dont want to be left behind in the ever changing world of technology. If I do my certification then I will have personal satisfaction, would also generate new ideas AND LEARN NEW TECHNOLOGY.
In my opinion I think do your certifcation for personal satisfaction only.
November 18, 2002 at 2:35 am
Yes, certification matters a lot to some managers. It provides a sense of security to them, that the person knows something if not everything.
I completed both my MCSD and MCDBA. And that helped me to move from a company of 10 mn Dollar to 1 Bn Dollar.
So, it matters a lot.
Mohit Nayyar
Thanks
Mohit Nayyar
http://mohitnayyar.blogspot.com/
"If I am destined to fail, then I do have a purpose in my life, To fail my destiny"
November 18, 2002 at 2:36 am
Yes, certification matters a lot to some managers. It provides a sense of security to them, that the person knows something if not everything.
I completed both my MCSD and MCDBA. And that helped me to move from a company of 10 mn Dollar to 1 Bn Dollar.
So, it matters a lot.
Mohit Nayyar
Thanks
Mohit Nayyar
http://mohitnayyar.blogspot.com/
"If I am destined to fail, then I do have a purpose in my life, To fail my destiny"
November 18, 2002 at 6:05 am
Just throwing my 2 cents in.
I have been in the IT world for 13 years. I have used SQL Server for over 4 years starting as a developer, junior DBA, and finally DBA under a Lead DBA with Microsoft On-Site.
When I left that position (personal reasons) I was referred to recruiters that the Microsoft personnel use. They tried there best to get me with several different companies.
I don't hold any certificates and I don't have a college degree. I was flooded and interviewed by several different companies UNTIL they found out about the degree/certs. This includes companies that I had all of their REQ. and OPTIONAL specs.
My wife has me going for my MCDBA. My experience is verifiable and I have been through TEST LABS. If I have this piece of paper for the LOW TECHS that SCREEN, I will be able to get to the people that know what to look for.
Thanks,
AJ
AJ Ahrens
SQL DBA
Custom Billing AT&T Labs
Good Hunting!
AJ Ahrens
webmaster@kritter.net
November 18, 2002 at 4:17 pm
Has anyone mentioned good attitude, keenness, quick learning as things to look for in an employee?
Surely in a world where technology seems to change by the month, these are as important as qualifications and experience.
Although database technology probably changes more slowly in comparison to the programming technologies that access the data, it does helps if the DB designer understands the needs of those developers who write code that accesses the data.
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