October 9, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Silverfox (10/9/2009)
VALEK (10/9/2009)
Imagine this.. You work in a medium sized company, using MSSQL2005 and nothing else.They are very tight on budget, try to be productive, focused and specialised, unlike government orgs and banks where there's a great variety of things.
You would like to learn COgnos and TM1. THere is no bloody way this company would pay for it. But it is not a secret that if you have MSSQL expertise and Cognos and TM1 you open youself to another several thousand cool jobs.
So what do we do? blindly pay and go for a course? Or download a cracked/evaluation version and learn ourselves for free but with no paper given in the end of the learning?
I think your view on banks is misguided, having just previously worked for one of the biggest investment banks in america if not globally. we were very restricted in what we had access to, technology wise. I can say that working for banks does not expand your skill set very much if anything it restricts. all knowledge is helpful, but how you apply that knowledge is key.
I am glad to say that it looks like the banks in South Africa goes out of their way to help people develop. I hear very often that the banks are offering to pay for some (especially IT) course and you can attend this for free and afterwards (if necessary) they will help you find a job.Now you might say: "But that is not for employees." but I do not see why they would do it for the public and not for their employees. I would like to get a job in the banks in SA.
:-PManie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Holy Bible
I am a man of fixed and unbending principles, the first of which is to be flexible at all times. - Everett Mckinley Dirkson (Well, I am trying. - Manie Verster)
October 9, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (10/9/2009)
Great to see so many people investing in themselves and taking responsibility for their career.Just by visiting SQLServerCentral you're doing that. Learning, reading, asking/answering questions, those are part of your investment. Maybe not all of it, but it's some of it.
It doesn't have to be just $$, or even many $$. There are lots of places on the web that will help you learn, books help, there are lots of cheap ways to educate yourself.
Even employers that won't give you $$ will often give you something almost as valuable: time. If your boss will allow you time to study/train/learn, take advantage of it. Set yourself an appointment to work on your career.
Hi Steve, I agree that a person do not need to invest $$$ and that SSC is a great investment and yes, I invested a lot of time learning from SSC but when it comes to the job interview then they want to see proof of that investment. Anyway, thanks for a great website. This site has taught me a lot.
:-PManie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Holy Bible
I am a man of fixed and unbending principles, the first of which is to be flexible at all times. - Everett Mckinley Dirkson (Well, I am trying. - Manie Verster)
October 10, 2009 at 2:45 am
Manie Verster (10/9/2009)
I am glad to say that it looks like the banks in South Africa goes out of their way to help people develop.
Some yes, some no. Bear in mind that showing an interest in education and training is good advertising (at least here).
From experience working for banks, one had the attitude that if you want training you're welcome, providing the cost comes from your own pocket and the days from your vacation, the other went completely the other way and required training (company paid) as part of job requirements.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 10, 2009 at 5:18 am
I think you should always invest on your career, most of the time, out of your own pocket. I buy books and learn from them to upgrade or transform my skills into future proof technologies. Normally you don't get chance to practice those trendy skills at work as they may be way ahead of what is essentially required by your current work. Then you might have to invest on setting up home work environment to get solid hands on experience to back up your claim on your experience in the interview. You will be surprised that a few hundred bucks can get all you want (a laptop and a SQL Server developer edition), and the return is rewarding. Getting a degree is only useful for getting your foot in the door. However obtaining higher degrees in IT while you are already working in the industry is waste of time, as most university teachings are way behind the industry.
Hang from Australia
October 10, 2009 at 9:31 pm
hangxliu (10/10/2009)
I think you should always invest on your career, most of the time, out of your own pocket. I buy books and learn from them to upgrade or transform my skills into future proof technologies. Normally you don't get chance to practice those trendy skills at work as they may be way ahead of what is essentially required by your current work. Then you might have to invest on setting up home work environment to get solid hands on experience to back up your claim on your experience in the interview. You will be surprised that a few hundred bucks can get all you want (a laptop and a SQL Server developer edition), and the return is rewarding. Getting a degree is only useful for getting your foot in the door. However obtaining higher degrees in IT while you are already working in the industry is waste of time, as most university teachings are way behind the industry.Hang from Australia
True. I am from Australia. In non-IT companies here there's a fundamental understanding of new technologies having been "tested by the world" if they are at least one cycle old. For example, the only day the company I worked for would adopt SQL2005 is when there's SP1 available. Migration takes time, so they are ALWAYS behind the whole world. While converting their cubes 2000 stopped being supported.
I have seen people stuck at their current work (MSSQL2000, MSAS, ASP) in year 2008-9 having no chance to practice even already passed version of Sql server.
As for IT degrees, true, but I would not discount value of getting some MBA or E-Business degree if you plan to progress onto some middle and then general management layer.
M.Sc.IT, M.B.A, MCTS BI 2008, MCITP BI 2008, MCTS SQL Dev, CSM, CDVDM
October 11, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Keeping your skills current is simply not an option in these times, regardless of whether you are a freelancer or full time employee. Competition for work is fierce (at least in this part of the world - UK) and employers find themselves able to take their pick from an ever increasing pool of IT talent. Certifications, Degrees, all good but bear in mind that at the end of the day employers are looking for people to solve their problems and if you can't demonstrate an ability to do this then you are likely to be passed over regardless of the number of letters that trail after your name.
October 12, 2009 at 7:54 am
I'm not sure that employers are as concerned about you being current in your field, especially as educating yourself without experience might not be the greatest way to develop skill. However the fact that you're making an effort impresses people. I think that alone goes a long way towards showing you are a good person to hire.
October 12, 2009 at 8:24 am
Steve Jones - Editor (10/12/2009)
I'm not sure that employers are as concerned about you being current in your field, especially as educating yourself without experience might not be the greatest way to develop skill. However the fact that you're making an effort impresses people. I think that alone goes a long way towards showing you are a good person to hire.
Being as current as you can in your field is the most important thing, just been for an interview recently and the fact that I know sql 2008, even though they only have a few instances made a big difference and that fact that I use it every day and gave examples of how I use it. Sounds better than someone saying i read a book or attended a course on sql 2008. knowledge without experience is of limited benefit if you are going in for a role that needs you to hit the ground running, which describes most freelance jobs anyways.
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October 12, 2009 at 8:59 am
I've mainly worked for small companies, and I've been responsible for my own training in all of those jobs.
But I seriously doubt anyone could come up with a training program that would work for me anyway, since I have my own way of studying and learning.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
October 14, 2009 at 10:13 am
I believe that we are each responsible for ourselves. It's great if your employer offers to pay for seminars or even tuition reimbursement for a degree, but at the end of the day, if you don't invest in yourself, then you sell yourself short.
I attend every SQL event that I can afford to and have taken vacation from work in order to attend some of them. I am also currently enrolled in an online college to get my formal degree in IT - not so much because I'm learning a lot new with these courses, but having that "piece of paper" is a visible sign that I am dedicated, open to new ideas and able to commit myself to a course. Those things speak volumes to employers.
October 15, 2009 at 12:50 am
eyespi20 (10/14/2009)
I believe that we are each responsible for ourselves. It's great if your employer offers to pay for seminars or even tuition reimbursement for a degree, but at the end of the day, if you don't invest in yourself, then you sell yourself short.I attend every SQL event that I can afford to and have taken vacation from work in order to attend some of them. I am also currently enrolled in an online college to get my formal degree in IT - not so much because I'm learning a lot new with these courses, but having that "piece of paper" is a visible sign that I am dedicated, open to new ideas and able to commit myself to a course. Those things speak volumes to employers.
So, I am not dedicated 'cause I don't have the paper? Interesting!!!
:-PManie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Holy Bible
I am a man of fixed and unbending principles, the first of which is to be flexible at all times. - Everett Mckinley Dirkson (Well, I am trying. - Manie Verster)
October 15, 2009 at 2:16 am
Manie Verster (10/15/2009)
eyespi20 (10/14/2009)
I believe that we are each responsible for ourselves. It's great if your employer offers to pay for seminars or even tuition reimbursement for a degree, but at the end of the day, if you don't invest in yourself, then you sell yourself short.I attend every SQL event that I can afford to and have taken vacation from work in order to attend some of them. I am also currently enrolled in an online college to get my formal degree in IT - not so much because I'm learning a lot new with these courses, but having that "piece of paper" is a visible sign that I am dedicated, open to new ideas and able to commit myself to a course. Those things speak volumes to employers.
So, I am not dedicated 'cause I don't have the paper? Interesting!!!
I think that the point being made is that an employer might consider someone to be dedicated if they have an academic paper :-D, doesnt mean that you are not dedicated...
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October 15, 2009 at 2:04 pm
I agree with Silverfox here. Don't take the "a degree/certification/etc shows an effort" to mean that the lack of it shows no effort. They aren't equivalent.
If you have them, or work on them, it does show something. I still want to know what your skills are and how you use them.
If you don't have the "paper", it means that I look to see what you have done. And I might question why you haven't done those things, but I'm looking for a reason, an answer. I'm not attacking you or holding it against you.
October 17, 2009 at 8:25 am
Steve Jones - Editor (10/15/2009)
I agree with Silverfox here. Don't take the "a degree/certification/etc shows an effort" to mean that the lack of it shows no effort. They aren't equivalent.If you have them, or work on them, it does show something. I still want to know what your skills are and how you use them.
If you don't have the "paper", it means that I look to see what you have done. And I might question why you haven't done those things, but I'm looking for a reason, an answer. I'm not attacking you or holding it against you.
Ok boss, I am so sorry for having the wrong attitude. Seriously, I did not mean it that way. I have worked very hard to be where I am today. That is knowledge wise not job wise. I turned my whole career on it's head when, at the age of 40, I made a 360 degree turn and decided to start doing computer programming. It is now 10 years and I learned everything I know from my boss and the internet. Yes, no papers and my boss (due to lack of finances) cannot send me on courses and same reason why I cannot send myself. Look at my track record in SSC but with job interviews that does not count.
:-PManie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Holy Bible
I am a man of fixed and unbending principles, the first of which is to be flexible at all times. - Everett Mckinley Dirkson (Well, I am trying. - Manie Verster)
October 17, 2009 at 9:52 am
I think it does count in interviews, you should bring it up.
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