January 9, 2009 at 11:43 am
Copeland, with his Mr. Rogers look (just because Gates and Balmer dress that way), strikes me as kind of myopic idiot. We all work in a vast variety of envioronments. Each has its acceptable norm which maybe policy or a defacto standard. The standard may vary from department to department and even one's position in the overall structure and it is always different.
The people with the power in a given structure usually try to be intimidating to others to make some sort of point. They do this showing off their stripes, campaign ribbons and medals; their $15,000 Armani suits, or even by dressing down in t's and thongs.
I don't know that the underdressed executive was intentionally trying to insult Mr. Copeland. But, he definently was saying "I am so far above you, I don't care what think of me or how I am dressed!" No matter what verbal excuse he gave. Copeland being insulted was his own personal thing. Possibly, showing his "insult" was a reaction the executive was looking for, whether good or bad.
I am sure that if that same executive had had a meeting with a potential client over a big money deal, where he knew the client expected formal attire, he would have donned his Armani suit and smiled a lot.
I've worn everthing possible in varying work environments, from formal tuxedo's, dress uniforms, suits, business casual (with or without ties), jump suits, fatigues, battle dress, dungarees, denim, underwear, and even nothing at all. And, I was comfortable in all of it. I've pulled cable wearing a suit and I've been to important business meetings wearing camo. You do what the situation dictates and you keep your head down.
If you never dress up, on the occasion you do, of course you will be uncomfortable and others will notice. Of course, once you done it for a few days, it quicky grows on you (if it all fits right) and that uncomfortable feeling will abate. It is important going into job interview type situations to look comfortable. Therefore, it is important to get used to wearing whatever attire is expected, beforehand.
"Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand." -- Martin Fowler
January 9, 2009 at 11:45 am
knausk (1/9/2009)
You do flaunt them at your own risk, certainly. And as you or someone here said, though I paraphrase, Americans are reluctant to be adults in so many ways. Take Japan, please. Stereotypically uniform, selfless.I would say one of the biggest problems in industry and politics and life, is the fearful mindset, that avoids rocking (flaunting certain rules) the boat, if there is a perceived risk to their own personal security.
Job security comes from being competent, open to ideas and people around you, and being okay with saying what you think especially if it puts your self on the line. Sort of the anti-CYA approach. I have found it is the best source of job security, and CYA is not.
I think it is a mistake to so closely link externals with internals. There is much more complexity to the world than just uniforms=static and selfless, while freedom in dress=greatness or whatever. You cannot define freedom without the 'from what' part of the equation, and likewise with rules -- they need chaos in order to have any meaning. Both things are important and play a role. Check out this TED talk.
January 9, 2009 at 11:45 am
Imagine a bell curve of fashion sense or general attire. Most people are in the big fat middle, no pun intended. Some live further out to the left or right, with the left being extremely odd, perhaps disconcerting attire, i.e. the "look" doesn't really enhance their image in the eyes of others. On the right, maybe 1.5 to 2.5 standard deviations out, are people who dress well, and look good. They are not all prime physical specimens, nor are they wearing runway model clothing, (those latter are 3+ standard deviations out to the left and right).
What I am saying is this. You owe it to yourself to see what you look like out towards the right end of that bell curve. My friend, Shoeless Joe, lived in clothes at that end of the spectrum. He looked good and was comfortable in those clothes. Like the song says, "You're a shining star, no matter who you are." Don't be afraid to dress like it occassionally.
January 9, 2009 at 11:47 am
I miss the old days when the VC guys gave you more money if they thought you were poorly dressed. I remember being told to untuck my shirt when the VC guys came around so we would get more money. I guess image does matter sometimes, but being comfortable helps me get more work done. I've never dressed to impress for an interview and it has never seemed to matter. While my interviewer may take a quick look at what I'm wearing, they pay way more attention to my answers to their interview questions. If not, it's not somewhere I would want to work anyway because it's going to be one of those old-school command and control companies. My skills are way too valuable to waste on an employer that is going nowhere. The only dress code we have here at the State of Wisconsin data center is to use good taste and not be offensive, and I'm sure that has everything to do with working for government. My employer definitely gets it and employs the talent to prove it.
Joshua Perry
http://www.greenarrow.net
January 9, 2009 at 11:58 am
Ron Kunce (1/9/2009)
I've worn everthing possible in varying work environments, from formal tuxedo's, dress uniforms, suits, business casual (with or without ties), jump suits, fatigues, battle dress, dungarees, denim, underwear, and even nothing at all. And, I was comfortable in all of it. I've pulled cable wearing a suit and I've been to important business meetings wearing camo. You do what the situation dictates and you keep your head down.
Excellent advice!! I've literally been in those situations and clothing as well (except for perhaps the underwear part:P). In the military, you learn that dressing for the occasion and being flexible is a necessity! And believe me, no other organization in the world has more uniforms for every situation than the Navy!!
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sqlrv
Website: https://www.sqlrv.com
January 9, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Well I think this was a great forum topic...
I think inquiring about dress code before accepting a job postition is a good idea, different jobs have different requirements, with my job I spend 99.99% of my time in a single cubicle so I'm glad I don't have to wear anything more than business casual.
If I had a choice I would wear a t-shirt and jeans every day but I will respect my bosses wishes.
I think for people who work at home (vpn) don't put on their suit before connecting via pptp and nobody is none the wiser.
I take offense at anyone equating competence with dress code. I mean seriously...what about Google's dress code?
Do you think that your a smarter dba or dev than they are???
I think a happy and comfortable employee will spend more time at the office and will be more productive, it sounds to me like the people at Fog Creek Software know where it's at.
January 9, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I need to be comfortable also. It makes a difference in where I choose to work also.
January 9, 2009 at 1:42 pm
As the resident HR guy, I note a few pretty vicious posts. That is ok, I have been dispensing unsolicited advice to my fellow techies for decades, and many don't listen to me, either. Please let me try again. Sometimes you have to club some people, especially technical performers, over the head.
Criticism of Balmer and Gates is sheer idiocy. The way they dress just screams, "I am a terrific technical performer with excellent business judgement, and I know what I am doing." Otherwise, these two billionaires would be wearing something different. Please adjust for seasonal requirements and stop being obtuse.
I suggest that anyone who advocates non-professional dress for technical performers has absolutely no evidence to back that up. Your technical skills are so good that you don't have to display good business judgement? How on Earth do you justify such an irresponsible statement, when there is an ocean of social science research to shut you up? How do you know what opportunities you have missed because people did not trust your judgement, because you looked like some hacker on a Warcraft tour?
My purpose in posting here is much the same as posting on any other thread. Run your own database any way you want, but do not give crappy advice to newbies. Same same on business attire. Tell technical professionals that their business attire doesn't matter, and I will call you on that straightaway. Crappy advice is crappy advice, and please keep it to yourself.
I am a business application developer, not a DBA, and I have an MS in HRM. I read this forum to learn from experts. I suspect that all of you do the same.
Have a great day!
January 9, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Ok - Clothes do make the man (or person).
It is very important that you look and act professional at ALL times, no matter if you are a dba or developer or a garbage collector. How you look is 100% of your first impression to those you meet, even if you see them every day. If you dress like a street person, you'll be treated with less respect.
On casual days, you should be neat and clean - no 3 day beard, no torn t-shirt and nothing too loud or political. You never know when you might meet the new owner of the company or your next employer.
Better safe than sorry!
January 9, 2009 at 1:56 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
I suggest that anyone who advocates non-professional dress for technical performers has absolutely no evidence to back that up. Your technical skills are so good that you don't have to display good business judgement? How on Earth do you justify such an irresponsible statement, when there is an ocean of social science research to shut you up? How do you know what opportunities you have missed because people did not trust your judgement, because you looked like some hacker on a Warcraft tour?
You obviously weren't involved in any way with getting VC money over the past decade or so. The suits thought the worse the technical talent was dressed, the smarter they were. While this wasn't necessarily the case, the stereotype is still there. If you have any HR experience at all, you would be advising newcomers that they should use the interview process to find a company that fits them and that they will be able to stay at for a while instead of bouncing around every six months to a year. Corporate culture should be right on the top of the list of things that should be considered when searching for a new employer. This includes a dress code among other things. If you want to give a newcomer good advice, advise them to find an employer that fits them instead of being unhappy by conforming to rules that don't make sense to them.
Joshua Perry
http://www.greenarrow.net
January 9, 2009 at 1:59 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
As the resident HR guy, I note a few pretty vicious posts. That is ok, I have been dispensing unsolicited advice to my fellow techies for decades, and many don't listen to me, either. Please let me try again. Sometimes you have to club some people, especially technical performers, over the head.Criticism of Balmer and Gates is sheer idiocy. The way they dress just screams, "I am a terrific technical performer with excellent business judgement, and I know what I am doing." Otherwise, these two billionaires would be wearing something different. Please adjust for seasonal requirements and stop being obtuse.
I suggest that anyone who advocates non-professional dress for technical performers has absolutely no evidence to back that up. Your technical skills are so good that you don't have to display good business judgement? How on Earth do you justify such an irresponsible statement, when there is an ocean of social science research to shut you up? How do you know what opportunities you have missed because people did not trust your judgement, because you looked like some hacker on a Warcraft tour?
My purpose in posting here is much the same as posting on any other thread. Run your own database any way you want, but do not give crappy advice to newbies. Same same on business attire. Tell technical professionals that their business attire doesn't matter, and I will call you on that straightaway. Crappy advice is crappy advice, and please keep it to yourself.
I am a business application developer, not a DBA, and I have an MS in HRM. I read this forum to learn from experts. I suspect that all of you do the same.
Have a great day!
I have a question for you, do you judge the quality of the advice given by the way the indivdual providing it is dressed, or by the technical soundness of the advice itself?
January 9, 2009 at 2:13 pm
I have a question for you, do you judge the quality of the advice given by the way the indivdual providing it is dressed, or by the technical soundness of the advice itself?
Lynn Pettis
Funny. Very funny. And astute, which is a particularly funny kind of funny.
January 9, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Joshua Perry (1/9/2009)
You obviously weren't involved in any way with getting VC money over the past decade or so. (snip)
In 2000, I was worth $8.5 M on paper after I excercised my options. We had investors from all over the world. Of course it was all a mirage, and that was because the VC's listened to droopy guys on Razors instead of people with good business judgement. Those days are over, and thank god for that.
January 9, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Bill gates I can't remember to many times I seen that man in a tie. In fact before he got married he looked a well let's just say not like the power broker he was and is. Weren't the early 90's about IT taking the suit out of business?
As a contractor I have to dress up, button down shirt and slacks because one wrong step and I'm out the door, but even now I still refuse the suit and tie. As an FTE I have found that dress code is one of those battles you can win over time. Start off dressy early on when you have to dodge someone with power accompanied with ignorance or an "old" school attitude to business. Than challenge there rules as you become more entrenched in the company and your begin to shine. As an example In my last role I went from dress shoes to sandals in 6 months I'm proud to say. 😎
I suppose the bottom line is that perception only matters when someone has nothing else to draw from when evaluating you.
If a person can't see past there own eyes and those perceptions are what they use in making a judgment vs. other data like competency in tasks assigned, willingness to help mentor others on your team, an awesome tolerance for alcoholic consumption, and having a conversation with the person face to face to understand who they are and what they value. I think it says more about your character as the "judge'r" than someones t-shirt.
We as DBA's don't sell anything but our mental skills as related to Codd's design of the RDBMS, after all.
However If I where in a postion where I was selling cars I would don that fake successful attitude to set someone at easy before I shafted them.
You know wear the suit, neat and short hair, but on plenty of aftershave, and shake the hand stiff why looking the person straight in the eye.
Hey wait a second isn't that the theme of a Pink Floyd song! Sweet.
Thank my lucky stars I'm not that guy.:hehe:
January 9, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
I have a question for you, do you judge the quality of the advice given by the way the indivdual providing it is dressed, or by the technical soundness of the advice itself?
In the waterfall design model, there are two phases of system design: business design and technical design. The two phases run concurrently, although technical design starts earlier than business design, due to the fact that it is usually harder to obtain business rules from functional experts.
And so, by analogy, the answer to your question: If you are developing on the MS platform, it is generally for a business solution. Therefore, business acumen will be part of the solution. A brilliant technical solution that is too expensive is useless. Business is business. Technology serves business to bring value. Otherwise, it is nothing more than a mental exercise.
Have a great day!
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