October 25, 2013 at 10:09 am
I wear jeans and a nice clean shirt with a collar. I met three weeks back with a lawyer representing a requestor in a Public Disclosure Request and I wore jeans and a blue oxford. I was dressed better then they were.
When I present locally I wear the same clothes I wear in the office, jeans and shirt with collar. When I present nationally I wear Kakis and blue oxford. I have presented to an audience with folks from both nations and tribes, and I did not wear a suit, neither did most of them.
Did I appear technically inadequate? I have been asked back, have severed on local, statewide, and national technical groups and no one, let me repeat no one has said one word about my jeans.
And to the point of being a business expert, I was considered for an honorary degree in one of the fields where I developed applications, and I have been instrumental in rewriting and reengineering business practices as the applied science of IT has been applied. And God forbid, it was done mostly while wearing jeans.
It is not what you wear, but what you are and do that matters.
And one last word to the major blather contained on this thread. The general idea of one line of reasoning is that if you dress well and attend to understanding the business you might be able to move into sales, HR, or another area of the business. What a joke! Dress well so I can leave IT and sell shoes? I have been there and done that and I am IT now and will stay that way by choice. I have no ambition to become a highly political schmuck dressed fit to kill who puts up a false front that he is not capable of living up to.
I am what I am by the grace of God, and I work in the area I am skilled in. I wear what I wear, if you do not like it I will work in another place and make them more successful then you are. I do not work for narrow-minded pinheads!
Apologies for the Friday Rant...
M.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
October 25, 2013 at 11:38 am
The only times I am ever asked to wear khakis or slacks is when important clients are in the office being given a tour or something. In those instances management want to sell that image of professionalism to non-technical folks who equate professionalism to business attire. To an outsider, I can see how that might make an impact. If you're dressed up then it reduces the chance that the client will have a negative reaction based on what you're wearing alone. It's the old thought that if a person is dressed casually then they might take your business casually and not as a priority too. Or that if you don't take the time to dress up more for work than you do in your leisure time then you aren't that serious about your work.
Of course, as we all know, developers could be sitting there in suits surfing Facebook or writing horrible code but "gee" do they look sharp! 😀
October 25, 2013 at 8:42 pm
I didn't read all 32 pages, but when I was hired at my current company we were a subsidiary HQ, SW development, and support desk. Our sister company upstairs was more along the main line of business for our Fortune 250 parent company.
So it was suit and tie for the interview. When signing the HR docs I was in polo and khakis and the AVP there made a comment since I was hired in at a higher level try and dress that way all the time. That was in November so over the winter I did collared shirts and jeans. The rest of the support and dev teams were jeans and t-shirts. So when spring came I decided to "strike" back and started buying Hawaiian shirts. Since then during the warmer months it is Hawaiian shirts and jeans. Colder months are long sleeve collared and jeans.
By the time the warm months came, no one cared what I wore. They knew I could make their job easier. Since then I am the go to guy for just about any issue. They don't care what I'm wearing.
As a former British boss said to me: He didn't care if I showed up wearing cowboy boots and a kerchief around my pecker, just do the job the way I already am. Once you show competence and skill it no longer really matters.
----------------
Jim P.
A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
October 26, 2013 at 3:41 pm
I commented on this thread when it was originally posted and the discussion got ugly. High quality business casual clothes almost scream competent IT professional. Advising anyone new to the industry to wear anything else is a mistake.
October 27, 2013 at 7:29 am
For me clothing is tool to be used at work just like any other. If I know I am going to be in a meeting with my most immediate peers, then it doesn't so much matter how I dress. They are well aware that I am a professional at all times and my clothing will not affect that. If it is a meeting with people outside that group, I will minimally dress in business casual. If I know upper management is in meeting, it will be more formal.
If anyone thinks that opinions of you and your work are not decided by how you dress, you are very much mistaken. I work with many millennials and they don't seem to pick up on this. I am an older Gen x and I can tell you that if you show up for an interview or a meeting the first time I meet you and you look like you slept in your car, I am going to form an opinion that your work will also be sloppy.
You can pretty much forget about being listened to at all by baby-boomer management types who left their sloppy hippy days a long time ago and didn't look back.
You need to dress and speak in a way that is appropriate to the audience in which you find yourself.
October 27, 2013 at 4:37 pm
Keith Hays (10/27/2013)
...and I can tell you that if you show up for an interview or a meeting the first time I meet you and you look like you slept in your car, I am going to form an opinion that your work will also be sloppy...
This is an admission that you would discard good hires in favour of better dressed but less capable
October 27, 2013 at 5:11 pm
mtucker-732014 (10/27/2013)
Keith Hays (10/27/2013)
...and I can tell you that if you show up for an interview or a meeting the first time I meet you and you look like you slept in your car, I am going to form an opinion that your work will also be sloppy...This is an admission that you would discard good hires in favour of better dressed but less capable
No actually Keith is saying that he will form a negative opinion of the person based on their appearance before they have a chance to prove themselves. He is not saying the candidate would be discarded. A negative opinion could be overcome through the candidates other actions.
Anyone who chooses to dress sloppily for an interview or first meeting with someone is just making it harder for themselves. People will form an impression that the person is sloppy or lazy and that they couldn't care to at least dress in unwrinkled clothes. I don't think he is not saying that he would discard them, he is saying that those hires will have to work a little harder to earn a positive reputation because they started off on the wrong foot. Their resume may still save them and allow for a technical interview where they shine. He is just saying that you might as well start off by putting your best foot forward instead of digging yourself out of a self-inflicted hole. Correct me if I am wrong here Keith. 🙂
This thread has equated to some enjoyable reading and seems to come down to using your best judgment to dress appropriately for each situation.
October 27, 2013 at 5:15 pm
You have it exactly correct KWymore. It is much harder to correct a visual first impression than to make a good one in the first place.
October 27, 2013 at 5:38 pm
mtucker-732014 (10/27/2013)
Keith Hays (10/27/2013)
...and I can tell you that if you show up for an interview or a meeting the first time I meet you and you look like you slept in your car, I am going to form an opinion that your work will also be sloppy...This is an admission that you would discard good hires in favour of better dressed but less capable
Specifically speaking of interviews, I am not sure of the difference. Lets say the two applicants are equally technically skilled, but one has the forethought to know the audience and has the ability to both dress and speak appropriately. This is invaluable in an IT environment where aligning IT to business need is paramount because so much of doing this is the ability to communicate across technical boundaries. I can teach almost anyone technical skills, but I cannot teach the other; it is either there or it is not.
October 27, 2013 at 6:30 pm
Keith Hays (10/27/2013)
Specifically speaking of interviews, I am not sure of the difference. Lets say the two applicants are equally technically skilled, but one has the forethought to know the audience and has the ability to both dress and speak appropriately. This is invaluable in an IT environment where aligning IT to business need is paramount because so much of doing this is the ability to communicate across technical boundaries. I can teach almost anyone technical skills, but I cannot teach the other; it is either there or it is not.
I will admit during an interview that I am not the best person to talk to end-users. I also admit that I don't want to be a supervisor. I can train people and lead a project team to do something like upgrades, roll outs, or similar projects, but don't want to do it day in and day out.
The one thing that I have been taught is that no matter how casual an environment the day-to-day is show up for the interview in a suit. If you walk in and see that the receptionist is wearing "daisy dukes" and a t-shirt, you can always loosen the tie (or take it off), unbutton the top button and carry your jacket.
But you can't get from jeans and a t-shirt to a suit.
----------------
Jim P.
A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
October 27, 2013 at 7:15 pm
This is an admission that you would discard good hires in favour of better dressed but less capable
Perhaps you can see how this thread got ugly last time.
October 28, 2013 at 8:04 am
I think that unless a certain dresscode is required, dressing in a suit to an interview is a pretty much an ironclad prerequisite, and people who don't adhere indicate they don't perceive one of three things:
1) Dressing formally to interviews is a social convention
2) Not being able to identify and accede to social conventions causes negative impressions
3) Dressing formally for an occasion indicates respect for the occasion
Having been on the interviewer side, as well as the interviewee side, I can agree with the comments that whilst a sloppy or informal appearance doesn't disqualify a person, it certainly provides an instant lowering of my opinion of them that has to be countered.
During the work week however, my clothing varies from very smart to probably not quite smart enough, and it is mainly dependant on my activities that day. A day of intensive thinking and coding is not a day where I should be uncomfortable. A day where I meet executives, deliver presentations, or interview people, is a day when I dress up.
[somewhat tongue in cheek rant]
Men get a bum deal with 'smart clothes' in the workplace. They are stuck with shirts and suit trousers, and in some places *shudder* ties. Women get away with a lot more variety and typically lower levels of smartness. Even on casual days, men are often prevented from wearing shorts.
I find this an unfortunate circumstance, because the root reason is often 'I wouldn't want to see another man's legs'. This is men keeping men uncomfortable because of what, dislike of leg hair, homophobia, the fact they objectify women in the workplace and dislike the idea of men being objectified by women / other men? All very silly reasons IMHO
This is sexism against men, perpetrated by men - viva la resistance! Break out the shorts!
😀
[/rant]
October 28, 2013 at 8:12 am
Steph Locke (10/28/2013)
I think that unless a certain dresscode is required, dressing in a suit to an interview is a pretty much an ironclad prerequisite, and people who don't adhere indicate they don't perceive one of three things:1) Dressing formally to interviews is a social convention
2) Not being able to identify and accede to social conventions causes negative impressions
3) Dressing formally for an occasion indicates respect for the occasion
Having been on the interviewer side, as well as the interviewee side, I can agree with the comments that whilst a sloppy or informal appearance doesn't disqualify a person, it certainly provides an instant lowering of my opinion of them that has to be countered.
During the work week however, my clothing varies from very smart to probably not quite smart enough, and it is mainly dependant on my activities that day. A day of intensive thinking and coding is not a day where I should be uncomfortable. A day where I meet executives, deliver presentations, or interview people, is a day when I dress up.
[somewhat tongue in cheek rant]
Men get a bum deal with 'smart clothes' in the workplace. They are stuck with shirts and suit trousers, and in some places *shudder* ties. Women get away with a lot more variety and typically lower levels of smartness. Even on casual days, men are often prevented from wearing shorts.
I find this an unfortunate circumstance, because the root reason is often 'I wouldn't want to see another man's legs'. This is men keeping men uncomfortable because of what, dislike of leg hair, homophobia, the fact they objectify women in the workplace?
This is sexism against men, perpetrated by men - viva la resistance! Break out the shorts!
😀
[/rant]
But...
I received a job based on an interview that took place on a swing-set in someone's back yard. I went there during lunch from my current employer. Both the setting and the situation meant I wasn't wearing a suit or tie. In fact, I was wearing shorts, sneakers and a witty t-shirt (I think it was an X-Files shirt). I got the job.
I interviewed for my current position while wearing a kilt. Needless to say, I got this job too. Oh, and I interviewed with another company that same day, wearing the same kilt.
The old days of iron-clad rules are gone. Maybe not everywhere (for example, I would assume that an interview with a financial services firm, I'm going to be wearing a suit & tie), but lots of places just don't require that kind of rigid behavior any more.
I know that upsets people, but it's reality.
And I'm with you. Let's break out the shorts and the kilts.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
October 28, 2013 at 8:55 am
Grant Fritchey (10/28/2013)[hrBut...
I received a job based on an interview that took place on a swing-set in someone's back yard. I went there during lunch from my current employer. Both the setting and the situation meant I wasn't wearing a suit or tie. In fact, I was wearing shorts, sneakers and a witty t-shirt (I think it was an X-Files shirt). I got the job.
I interviewed for my current position while wearing a kilt. Needless to say, I got this job too. Oh, and I interviewed with another company that same day, wearing the same kilt.
The old days of iron-clad rules are gone. Maybe not everywhere (for example, I would assume that an interview with a financial services firm, I'm going to be wearing a suit & tie), but lots of places just don't require that kind of rigid behavior any more.
I know that upsets people, but it's reality.
And I'm with you. Let's break out the shorts and the kilts.
I'm not sure I'd count a meeting on a swing as an interview, but certainly, the context removes the formality inherent in an interview, and relaxes the dress code too. It'd be on a similar footing to a discussion about a job held in a coffee shop - I wouldn't expect anyone to show up in a suit unless that's what they wore to work that day.
In the UK, the kilt would be considered formal and suitable attire - particularly if you had one like this chap
October 28, 2013 at 9:44 am
GeorgeCopeland (10/27/2013)
This is an admission that you would discard good hires in favour of better dressed but less capable
Perhaps you can see how this thread got ugly last time.
Hi George,
I read most of the ugly you refer to and it was bad. Glad to see you survived it! To be honest both sides got a little testy, but for reasons we will not go into now.
But your last comment about dress for one starting out was very well stated and spot on. When you start in any position you have no reputation and have had zero time to show your skill set. You are on the proving ground and you must show value and competency. While you build the reputation you dress for success as some say. Later once you have shown value and become part of the team, you can start relaxing your dress if and only if it is acceptable for that company/department. We must remember that our primary function is to provide solutions to our customers at a good price within a reasonable time. Low cost might be great as well but you cannot have all three.
Sorry you went through all the ugly before. There is no need. If one were to really stretch the issue it is a "Freedom of Expression" but still that must to a certain level conform to the level of acceptability of the company. We are not rebels, we might be a change agent working within the processes or organization from time to time but not rebels.
M...
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
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