January 12, 2009 at 3:45 pm
majorbloodnock (1/12/2009)
What Bill Gates wore whilst at Microsoft's helm doesn't scream about what he's achieved, it speaks volumes about what he wants to achieve next, ...
What I find uniquely interesting, is that using Bill Gates as an example of standard for following is exactly what Bill himself went markedly against by going casual in a sea of suits. He intentionally dressed down, not up.
Personally, I think the dress shirt and sweater combo works for Gates, but a tie-less suit would work better for Balmer. But Balmer is currently "in the mold". Neither style changes my perception of the value of Microsoft.
January 12, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Robert Domitz (1/12/2009)
For business meetings, I add a bolo tie.[/p]
I've got one on today! A Tyhee Indian pattern. My preferred "tie". But it looks much better.
January 12, 2009 at 4:03 pm
mtucker (1/12/2009)
You highly doubt it? On what basis? That statement displays a disturbing tendency to pre judgement. You know for a fact that highly competent people are not always the best dressers and yet you still cant put appearances to one side.
I highly doubt it based on the fact that if someone can't figure out how to show up at an interview dressed like a professional, it is highly likely that the person possesses other deficits. One such likely deficit would be a tendency to ignore other workplace standards he or she doesn't like, such as T-SQL standards. That person might think his or her standards are better than yours, just like this one. What could possibly be the difference between the two?
Highly competent people generally don't need a lot of job coaching. However, most of us are not in that category. If you are, hooray for you. If you are not, my advice would probably be more valuable to you.
It has always amazed me how emotional technical performers can get when they are advised to dress in an adult and businesslike way. This is merely common sense. Don't do it all you please, but don't be suprised if you find some career opportunities closed to you.
As for this notion that caring about a person's professional appearance is somehow unjustified, that is simply preposterous. For example, if you have 40 equally qualified candidates for a job and have 10 interview slots, how do you discriminate? The way most hiring managers do it is to throw out every sloppy resume. Sure, you may have thrown out the next Steve Wozniak, but what other reasonable means would you suggest?
January 12, 2009 at 4:16 pm
I really think you are missing the point. No one is dismissing that you need to be properly attired for your interview, well-groomed, clean, etc. But this isn't what you should be PREJUDGED on. I know people who just plain look aweful in a suit and tie. They aren't comfortable in a suit and it is obvious. They'll wear them if required, but would prefer to be dressed more casually.
You have already stated you judge a persons technical expertise on thier appearance, these people would probably not pass your initial screening, even if they were the next Steve Wozniak.
As for resumes, everyone already knows that these are the first thing that people will see, you better put a lot of effort into it making sure that it is properly written, no grammer errors, typos, etc. Those are things that will result in your being rejected. Why, because the hiring manager could easily have 50 to a 100 or more resumes to review, and they really don't have a lot time to go through resumes that have "issues".
January 12, 2009 at 4:31 pm
I highly doubt it based on the fact that if someone can't figure out how to show up at an interview dressed like a professional, it is highly likely that the person possesses other deficits.
You mean, cant figure out how to please people who think appearances are a good indicator of expertise. You jump to all sorts of conclusions about people's motivations, so I seriously hope you are not an HR person. The poorly dressed person may well be quite capable of figuring out what passes as a professional appearance, but could well be just pre occupied with other more important things. A better approach might be to point out to the applicant that your company expects a certain dress code, if they still have a problem with it then they probably wont fit in well.
January 12, 2009 at 6:22 pm
gcopeland (1/12/2009)
... if someone can't figure out how to show up at an interview dressed like a professional, it is highly likely that the person possesses other deficits. One such likely deficit would be a tendency to ignore other workplace standards he or she doesn't like, such as T-SQL standards. That person might think his or her standards are better than yours, just like this one. What could possibly be the difference between the two?
I have seen more evidence to the contrary on this point. Some of the best coders with the most strict standards that I know have extremely casual clothing standards. (Probably engendered from the late nights of being rocked with ideas for the next big project). Most of these code-weilding laid-back dressers are code standards vigilantes.
These arguments have turned from standards for sitting positions, to initial contact of interviewees, to wit, the origin of the article was jeans and a T-shirt for a sitting moderator/admin.
I don't think anyone argues against interviewees dressing to an appropriate level for the job desired, if not up a notch.
There is little to no connection between skills and dress. Dress may indicate attitude, maybe, and even "dressing skills", but not technical skills, nor code, or other technical standards. Bottling "dress equals skills" within the package of "business acumen" and "technical performer" is subjective.
January 12, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Lynn Pettis (1/12/2009)
I really think you are missing the point. No one is dismissing that you need to be properly attired for your interview, well-groomed, clean, etc. But this isn't what you should be PREJUDGED on. I know people who just plain look aweful in a suit and tie. They aren't comfortable in a suit and it is obvious. They'll wear them if required, but would prefer to be dressed more casually.
*I* am the one missing the point? You may wish for some fantasy world where you are not prejudged, but you will not find it. I confront reality, and I advise my fellow technical performers to always present a positive business demeanor. You do not and cannot know when you will be judged. Of course your demeanor must be backed up by real technical performance, but please give me a break. Steve Wozniak could pull off the crazy cousin in the basement thing, but not you nor I. And I will point out how dapper Steve Jobs was during that period.
You have already stated you judge a persons technical expertise on thier appearance, these people would probably not pass your initial screening, even if they were the next Steve Wozniak.
I am getting tired of posters on this thread putting words in my mouth. Please post a link.
As for resumes, everyone already knows that these are the first thing that people will see, you better put a lot of effort into it making sure that it is properly written, no grammer errors, typos, etc. Those are things that will result in your being rejected. Why, because the hiring manager could easily have 50 to a 100 or more resumes to review, and they really don't have a lot time to go through resumes that have "issues".
Oh, so now it is "everyone already knows". Professional appearances matter. I think that is what I have been saying from the beginning. I am delighted to find that you agree with me.
Please forgive my attitude. I have no real argument with you at all. My main concern is with newbies who might not understand that your criticism comes from someone who is already an established professional with a technical track record. Forgive me, but for these professionals, your advice is terrible, and they should not follow it. You know what you are doing, and they do not. That is all I am saying.
January 12, 2009 at 11:53 pm
mtucker (1/12/2009)
You mean, cant figure out how to please people who think appearances are a good indicator of expertise. You jump to all sorts of conclusions about people's motivations, so I seriously hope you are not an HR person. The poorly dressed person may well be quite capable of figuring out what passes as a professional appearance, but could well be just pre occupied with other more important things. A better approach might be to point out to the applicant that your company expects a certain dress code, if they still have a problem with it then they probably wont fit in well.
What I mean to say is that I have noticed that a good hacker with two years of customer service experience at McDonalds is much more useful on my team than some IT network engineer with a CS degree. McDonalds employees seem to know that customers have unfulfilled requirements that they are paying money for. CS degree holders seem to not completely understand that issue. It is a big problem that I am still dealing with. But I will do my best.
January 13, 2009 at 1:54 am
And by the way, Steve needs to change his t-shrit in his online picture! He looks like a chump!
January 13, 2009 at 2:12 am
gcopeland (1/13/2009)
And by the way, Steve needs to change his t-shrit in his online picture! He looks like a chump!
Given your stated opinions earlier in this thread, I think Steve can fairly safely take that as a compliment. 😉
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
January 13, 2009 at 2:50 am
majorbloodnock (1/13/2009)
Given your stated opinions earlier in this thread, I think Steve can fairly safely take that as a compliment. 😉
Given "my stated opinions"...honestly...Is that the best you can come up with? *I* do not have an Internet blog. I am not a principal in an Internet company.
How about this: Steve's online t-shirt picture makes him look like someone who doen't understand anything about business. If he is trying to help his company sell software product, then shouldn't he wear something that makes him look more professional?
Just saying.
Have a great day.
January 13, 2009 at 3:24 am
gcopeland (1/13/2009)
majorbloodnock (1/13/2009)
Given your stated opinions earlier in this thread, I think Steve can fairly safely take that as a compliment. 😉Given "my stated opinions"...Is that the best you can come up with? No scientifically reasoned means for justifying his childish garb? How about this: Steve's t-shrt makes him look like someone who doen't understand anything about business. If he wants to help sell software product, he will wear something that looks more professional?
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I've posted several times with specific points, and this is the only one you've been inclined to pick up on. No matter.
The "customers" of this site are its members, active or otherwise. Approximately 1 million of them. Of the active ones inclined to display any opinion on Steve's attire, you stand almost alone in your criticism of it. So Steve, with all the facets of his image, has attracted a huge number of customers (i.e. he's been very successful) and the vast majority of stated opinion from those customers states categorically that they're very happy with what the site provides and with Steve as the provider (i.e. product, brand and image are accurately targetted and appropriate to them). Yet you (a small minority) persist in arguing with the other customers that they're all wrong to have voted with their feet in the way they have. I reiterate what I've posted before - professional doesn't mean looking formal; professional means looking appropriate and getting results. Steve is, by demonstration, professional.
This is all interesting and harmless banter, of course, since Steve can and will do as he likes, as will his customer base. What this demonstrates, however, is that you, who purport to look for and recognise business needs, are inclined to carry on trying to prove you're right, ignoring the opinions of all the customers of this particular business demonstrating unequivocally that the theory you're touting doesn't fit this business. How can you tout your business acumen when you're not prepared to listen to the customers' stated preferences? If my company told its customers they were wrong because they didn't conform to academic theories, we'd be out of business because our customers would go elsewhere.
Therefore, you've been proven wrong in your application of what you've learnt (note that this is different from what you learnt necessarily being wrong in itself) so many times in this thread. I have long since given up hope that you'll realise it, but I find your opinions to be so flawed that I do take criticism from you to equal a compliment from most others.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
January 13, 2009 at 6:49 am
I too didn't care for the t-shirt but that was because it didn't fit in with my personal impression of what a computer professional dressed like. I go back to a more corporate time so my image of a programmer is a lot more formal.
I was once hired to replace a woman who the management was trying to remove - she later was hired at another company I worked for and there too was greatly disliked (why it it women who inspire such strong antipathy?). Anyway, the one place she seemed to fit in was one of the auction houses in New York - I went there for an interview. I was dressed in an expensive wool suit with a silk blouse - an effort of grooming and appearance I would never be able to sustain on a daily basis. I was very early and while waiting to be called saw one of the appriasers gently tell a customer that a family heirloom violin was worthless. She was in a fur-collared coat dress. I felt horribly underdressed. Needless to say, I didn't get the job (sort of to my relief). This much disliked co-worker was the type to be tweaking her make-up throughout the day, whether or not anyone outside of the department would see her that day - or any day.
January 13, 2009 at 7:03 am
Perhaps HR guy with a Masters is right.
Ooopps.
No.
Instead, he really is the HR manager in the Monty Python bit on arguments
"This isn't an argument."
"Yes, it tis."
"No, it isn't".
"Tis"
Times up.
January 13, 2009 at 7:14 am
gcopeland (1/12/2009)
You have already stated you judge a persons technical expertise on thier appearance, these people would probably not pass your initial screening, even if they were the next Steve Wozniak.
I am getting tired of posters on this thread putting words in my mouth. Please post a link.
Actually, all you have to do is look back at your own posts in this thread, here for instance.
In addition, your entire argument throughout this thread is that we, as professionals, should always "dress up" even if the company culture is counter to that mode of dress. In essence, when I go to work, I should always dress in a nicely pressed set of matching dress pants and shirt with tie.
Realize, we aren't talking about an single event, like an interview for a new job, but on a regular basis. I'm sorry, but my current employment does not require it, and I feel more comfortable sans the tie. If I were to move up to my managers position, then I would start wearing the tie. Why, because it is a director level position, and is expected.
I am recognized at my organization for my technical expertise, not because of how I dress, but because of the work I perform for my organization.
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