January 11, 2009 at 8:36 pm
It's getting a bit long to quote all the bits and pieces, so I'll just comment here.
I've heard aobut "priming" type studies before; in those cases it was being related back to how external events (like your drive to work) could affect how you viewed others. So some poor interviewee could get sacked just because some other driver cut you off. An interesting hypothesis.
I agree people react to stimuli that they often don't recognize, and I'm sure there are things I react to that aren't in my concious purview. Appearance and dress just isn't one of them. I suspect that's because I made a concious choice back in grade school that I would never judge someone that way; I'd had enough of being on the receiving end of it myself. It was before Title IX in the good ole USA, when girls weren't allowed to wear pants to school and boys were allowed to do anything they want to girls. And blacks weren't allowed to live in white towns, and a whole host of other bigotries were in effect.
It's surprising just how powerful the human mind is. Jack, you conciously have moderated your views about appearance. So have lots of other people. The same can be said about a great many things; back in the 60's a black couldn't go to the same school as a white, and yet now we're approaching a new era where the leader of our country will be black man. In 50 years, people's perceptions have turned upside down because so many people chose to moderate their views.
A lot of comments got made about appearance during the campaign, too - everything from "he dresses/talks/looks like and elitist" to "why is he trying to imitate white folks". Positive and negative attitudes about the suit. Darned silly if you ask me.
We all are capable of changing our perceptions, changing our minds, changing how we view the world. I think that gives us a tremendous amount of power over ourselves and our lives. So I don't agree with mtucker's statement that we can't control what affects and influences us - I believe we can, but only by concious choice.
Steph Brown
January 11, 2009 at 8:43 pm
I think priming can matter, but I'd like to think that there are many more things which would come up in a meeting that would overwhelm the primed pump.
And I'd hope some of you might hire me!
January 11, 2009 at 8:46 pm
I dont think we cant control things which affect our decision making, but generally only if we are aware of those things. Not many people would consider whether or not they briefly held a can of cold drink before an interview in their decision making process.
The HR person who suggested that Steve wear something less casual seems to be ignoring the fact that large numbers of IT professionals already regard Steve as 'professional' because of the content on this site.
January 12, 2009 at 2:37 am
Someone asked that "Business acumen" be defined, but I don't think it ever was (although, in 23 pages, I might have missed it, I'll admit). I'm not going to go for a complete definition, but one aspect is certainly spotting what is beneficial to achieve and how to bring it about. GCopeland has, perhaps partly in self-defence, entrenched himself into a position where good and bad dress is fairly strictly and tightly defined in absolute terms, rather than more loosely as "appropriate to the prevailing situation". What Bill Gates wore whilst at Microsoft's helm doesn't scream about what he's achieved, it speaks volumes about what he wants to achieve next, and it's obviously different from the course preferred by the conservative banking and legal corporations.
In an interview, both parties are expected to get a better understanding of each other and decide whether a longer term relationship would be beneficial or not. If an interviewee comes suited and booted to an interview with a company with an informal dress code, that's a piece of information the interviewer would be negligent to ignore. If that interviewee can then not refrain from telling the interviewer how insulted they are that the interviewer didn't fit in with the interviewee's views, that's made the interviewer's job far easier; obviously, the interviewee will not fit in, and no valuable second interview time need be spent.
As for scientific fact not needing to be argued with, that's a great way for stifling progress. Human advancement is as far as it is precisely because we constantly challenge accepted "fact". Scientific fact is simply "the best explanation we have at present", and when we're talking about social norms, that "scientific fact" is hugely susceptible to modification. What is currently acceptable socially is not the same as that 5 years ago, let alone 20 years, and, as has been said before, is even then a range rather than a single definition. For anyone to make an absolute judgement ("you're all wrong") about such a variable topic strikes me as arrogant, unprofessional and academically unsound in itself. And let's not forget that there are plenty of others on this forum who have similarly varied academic qualifications as Mr Copeland, so there is no sound basis for believing he has a monopoly on being right.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
January 12, 2009 at 7:25 am
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
GSquared (1/9/2009)
Couple of fallacies:The way that Gates and Ballmer dress is considered socially appropriate for executives. It says nothing whatsoever about technical skill. You're concatenating two thoughts into one conclusion.
Do you really mean to say that what Bill Gates wears says nothing whatsoever about his technical skill? You mean to say this about a programmer with unlimited resources and who wrote the first couple of versions of Excel in assembler?
Fallacies indeed.
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. George W Bush dresses well. By your logic, that means you assume he's a highly skilled computer programmer.
At this point, I'm just hoping you are being deliberately misleading in your statements, because I have trouble accepting that anyone could actually think that way.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 12, 2009 at 7:44 am
After this priming discussion, I think from now on if I interview somewhere I will always take a bit of time to chit chat and ask those present how their drive in today went, and in a low key way, try to get an assessment of whose pump is primed and with what.
My friend, William, will assess a company he is thinking about doing some work for. He will, on occassion, park outside the building entrace of the new place at various points in the day and watch employees come and go. He is admittedly a remarkably perceptive person. If the employees look stressed, happy, carefree, or depressed is fairly apparant. It doesn't rule out working for the place, but it gives him an appraisal and some information before going in to meet with the company representatives.
He tends to be a high end consultant so perhaps his approach is outside the bounds of what an average interviewee can or would do. It does remind me that it pays to "form an intent carefully". At some point your intentions meet up with other people's and excretia hits the fan.
I don't want to diverge from the clothes issue too much. So, if you form an intent about the purpose of an interview and what you hope to have happen, it tends to give you a sense (real or not) that your efforts to prime the pump may be sufficient to win the day over any other priming that is going on. Thus that your clothes, matter somewhat, look good enough on you, and that your own ability and unique skills are present and accounted for.
I repeat, "you're a shining star, no matter who you are".
January 12, 2009 at 7:46 am
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
I agree that your synopsis puts the subject in clear view for everyone. And if everyone agrees with you that technical design is the most important, then you win.However, there is another big camel with his head under the tent, and that camel is business design. Business design requires business acumen. This is a big requirement that few here seem able to understand.
That deficient is fine. It is what keeps me in the dough. Keep on building systems with no good business design. Customers will continue to bring me in to clean up the mess.
On the other hand, we could all agree to acknowledge our own areas of expertise, and build systems that actually meet customer requirements. Agile, anyone?
Have a great day, friends!
Dressing well also does not equal business accumen. One of the owners of one of the companies I used to work for was a great dresses. Always looked very sharp. And she had all the business accumen of a vacuum cleaner. The only thing she was really good at (besides looking good) was chasing away competent employees. Her husband, also an owner of the business (was a family thing), was also a sharp dresser. Suits and ties. And he ran a multi-million dollar per year company into bankruptcy.
Yes, technical and business expertise are both necessary. Very, very necessary. So, for that matter, is political expertise. NONE of these require the slightest bit of fashion sense. Dressing appropriately might make them easier, since people do judge by appearance, but it is far from mission critical.
Again, you're connecting data that have no actual logical connection. Dressing well does not have a causal relationship with success in anything at all except being a fashion model.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 12, 2009 at 8:05 am
knausk (1/12/2009)
After this priming discussion, I think from now on if I interview somewhere I will always take a bit of time to chit chat and ask those present how their drive in today went, and in a low key way, try to get an assessment of whose pump is primed and with what.My friend, William, will assess a company he is thinking about doing some work for. He will, on occassion, park outside the building entrace of the new place at various points in the day and watch employees come and go. He is admittedly a remarkably perceptive person. If the employees look stressed, happy, carefree, or depressed is fairly apparant. It doesn't rule out working for the place, but it gives him an appraisal and some information before going in to meet with the company representatives.
He tends to be a high end consultant so perhaps his approach is outside the bounds of what an average interviewee can or would do. It does remind me that it pays to "form an intent carefully". At some point your intentions meet up with other people's and excretia hits the fan.
I don't want to diverge from the clothes issue too much. So, if you form an intent about the purpose of an interview and what you hope to have happen, it tends to give you a sense (real or not) that your efforts to prime the pump may be sufficient to win the day over any other priming that is going on. Thus that your clothes, matter somewhat, look good enough on you, and that your own ability and unique skills are present and accounted for.
I repeat, "you're a shining star, no matter who you are".
Actually interview "coaches" for lack of a better term recommend doing what William does if it is at all possible for you to do. This is part of your research into the company so you can ask intelligent questions and have an idea of the culture. It also helps you decide on proper dress for the interview. If you see ties, make sure you wear one, etc... I personally think that the interviewee should be the best dressed person in the interview, or at least dressed as well as the lead interviewer.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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January 12, 2009 at 8:06 am
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January 12, 2009 at 8:16 am
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
However, there is another big camel with his head under the tent, and that camel is business design. Business design requires business acumen. This is a big requirement that few here seem able to understand.That deficient is fine. It is what keeps me in the dough. Keep on building systems with no good business design. Customers will continue to bring me in to clean up the mess.
On the other hand, we could all agree to acknowledge our own areas of expertise, and build systems that actually meet customer requirements. Agile, anyone?
Have a great day, friends!
"Did you see our CEO today? Black belt with brown shoes! Oh, God, where has his business acumen gone..."
😛
"I dress to fit in. That's essential. My applications are better than anyone else's because I'm excellent at designing them to look/feel/work the way things have always been done round here. Innovation and individuality are unprofessional, and should be avoided."
😛
"Understand the business? Of course I do. Just look at my wardrobe."
😛
What you wear says something about you. However, when judging someone by their appearance, beware of hearing what you want to hear or simply mis-hearing what the image says. It's like statistics; it says something, but working out what it says is a skill that needs practice, and that many do not have.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
January 12, 2009 at 8:27 am
Major Bloodnock? The Goons?? Radio or Television?? Gosh is someone as old as me????
Frankly I don't care what you wear as long as it is clean and tidy not smelly or full of holes. I could come out with a load of Goons jokes here but I'm afraid that you have to be English and a certain age to get the point.
Madame Artois
January 12, 2009 at 8:31 am
well said, Major. It's the "what" it says that causes so much debate.
apparently it's a hot button issue, however since this thread is one of the most posted to in a one week period.
January 12, 2009 at 8:32 am
S Hodkinson (1/12/2009)
Major Bloodnock? The Goons?? Radio or Television?? Gosh is someone as old as me????Frankly I don't care what you wear as long as it is clean and tidy not smelly or full of holes. I could come out with a load of Goons jokes here but I'm afraid that you have to be English and a certain age to get the point.
Bang on the money for the source of the moniker. Radio by preference, since I never really got into the Telegoons. As for age, I'm just a little too young to have caught the Goons first time round, but certainly old enough (and well-gooned enough) to get the point. After all, "I got it writted down on a piece of paper...." 😉
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
January 12, 2009 at 9:04 am
In that case ......and sticking to the theme of clothing........... 'Enter Bluebottle in Arabian headdress and cardboard knees !!!'
Madame Artois
January 12, 2009 at 9:08 am
S Hodkinson (1/12/2009)
In that case ......and sticking to the theme of clothing........... 'Enter Bluebottle in Arabian headdress and cardboard knees !!!'
...pauses for applause; not a sausinge.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
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