January 9, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Feel the force, Lynn.
January 9, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Three more posts to 200!!!! Have a %#@*$& weekend, everybody!
😎 Kate The Great :w00t:
If you don't have time to do it right the first time, where will you find time to do it again?
January 9, 2009 at 11:26 pm
Interesting article, although a bit condescending. I have worked as a developer for 11 years. I'm a very good programmer and I like it very much. I dress professionally every day (including makeup, matching accessories and 3" pumps). This is not a company dress code. Many of my peers wear jeans, flannel shirts, or whatever they want. I dress this way because it makes me happy and it's what I'm accustomed to. I am criticized for being over-dressed by a few people in other departments, who are unfamiliar with my work. However, ALL of my peers will remark that I'm a true team player and very smart. To outsiders looking in, my appearance denotes vanity, shallowness and inferior programming skills (compared to the guys on the team). However, my peers see me as a leader and sharpest programmer in the group and I wear this crown proudly. On most Wednesdays after work, you'll most likely find me at a Union Mission volunteering -- still wearing the same clothes that I wore to work -- sleeves rolled up and wearing high-heeled pumps. The work that you do defines you -- not your appearance.
January 9, 2009 at 11:57 pm
lora_rivers (1/9/2009)
Interesting article, although a bit condescending.
Good luck, Lora, if you expect anybody to give you your due.
January 10, 2009 at 12:03 am
lora_rivers (1/9/2009)
I dress professionally every day (including makeup, matching accessories and 3" pumps). ... To outsiders looking in, my appearance denotes vanity, shallowness and inferior programming skills (compared to the guys on the team).
Silly outsiders, I say. For me it would denote sprained ankles, as I can't go over a 1" wide heel without rolling out and ripping thru the ligaments (I won't go near a spiked heel...) But I thoroughly enjoy spending time with my self-proclaimed "girly girl" friend - the one I take with me when I need to go serious clothes shopping (my partner has a great eye for colors, but he gets bored too quickly). Put us side by side on a non-work day and you would know immediately that we're totally different people, if all you looked at was the dress code. I'm flannel shirts and jeans and hiking boots, she's casual blouse and capri pants and strappy sandals.
But she's also a horsewoman, and dresses totally different in that area of her life. And I don't mind strappy sandals, but they don't work when you've fired up the table saw and are wallowing around in sawdust and wood chips.
I salute you for wearing what you like, and what is comfortable for you, while staying within your company's dress code and more importantly from my perspective, being a TEAM player. It's what most of us do, at least according to this (very large) thread.
Must say I've been enjoying the debate, and had quite a few laughs. Next fun thing to do might be to run back thru all 20 pages and compile the various points that have been made, and find the missing definitions (as dphillips pointed out, Technical Performer and Business Acumen have not been defined; other terms lack definition as well). Yes, I have a strange idea of what is fun.
New fun theory to think about: gcopeland is testing new automated software that looks for key words and fashions responses based on randomized phrases, and has enlisted the help, all unwitting, of this forum.. He is an evil genius, hell-bent on sucking us all in to spending time on this thread instead of working, so he can swoop in with his Armani suit and contract our jobs out from under us. BwaHaaHaa!
And good night to all; it's sleepy time on the West Coast.
Steph Brown
January 10, 2009 at 9:01 am
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
What I am saying, is I won't ignore the solid technical advice of an individual based on his appearance, where as you basically have said that you would. Solid technical advice is solid technical advice regardless of ones appearance.
Wow, this went a little crazy while I went snowboarding 🙂
The dress can make an impression, but it's an impression. If you were to ever judge someone's technical competence by their appearance, that perhaps says more about you than them.
And I'd hope that someone you just met would be grilled about their technical competence before you allowed them to do anything.
January 10, 2009 at 9:08 am
jpowers (1/9/2009)
Anyone who thinks writing in assembler is essentially more difficult than writing in any other language is not a very experienced application developer.
Not sure I agree with that. Assembler requires, I think, a more detailed thought process. And you have to really think about what goes where. Even C handles things for you, like basic memory management, and lets you think a bit more about the logic.
The basics are similar, but I surely wouldn't necessarily think a top-notch C# programmer would do well in assembler. Perhaps the other way around.
January 10, 2009 at 10:32 am
Jack Corbett (1/9/2009)
Wow, I think this may be a record for editorials.I have one more comment, Image is not just appearance, it is also attitude and getting along with others. Being close-minded and only considering your ideas as valid, would, in my opinion, not be projecting the a positive image.
Here, here. That's well said, Jack.
January 10, 2009 at 10:45 am
knausk (1/9/2009)
The conference was 4 days long that year. On the first day I thought to myself, "Man, these Harvard guys think they run the world." By the forth day I was saying, "Man, these Harvard guys run the world."
we've only recently found out just how badly.............................
Appearances were certainly deceptive here.
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January 10, 2009 at 11:03 am
Consider snowboarding as a corollary to technological ability. Granted it is something most people do for fun rather than income. When you snowboard, ability is readily apparant to doers and viewers. I am old and very unskilled at snow boarding, therefore I face plant a lot. (actually I would have to say I seem to be stuck in an endless loop of face planting with no error handler to get me out cleanly) The clothes I wear don't really help me avoid the face plant.
For a pro snow boarder, the clothes are a whole different deal and endorsements dictate the fashion sense, and workplace norm. Still, an unendorsed person could in theory show up to a competition and win. Perhaps with the added result of then gaining an equipment endorsement. An endorsed snowboarder would be violating a contract to not show up with the right gear on.
As for programmers and dbas. The clothes contract is far less rigorous and not as directly tied to the revenue stream. If you are so so technically, your clothes may get you into trouble, your attitude too. If you are a star technically, a bathrobe will do, unless you work for Ross Perot, Leona Helms, or GCopeland.
On second thought, please allow me to apologize for thinking I have something interesting enough to say that bears any of you taking valuable life seconds to read. I say that because the above is really just blather compared to the really important things.
However, now that I am groveling, it occurs to me that this whole thread starts with image as a topic (via clothes, etc.) and seems to have reached the conclusion, in many of the minds partaking, that respect by the wearer for others matters more than what is being worn by either party. And that technical ability is not the only, perhaps not even the primary, means by which a person is judged. I tolerate a junior person's lack of experiece naturally if they are not a jerk, and regardless of what they wear. But, it the person is a technical guru and a well dressed jerk, well I still tolerate them because, hey, life is not easy for some people. Sometimes unfortunately, I am the jerk. At which point all bets are off. Think Yosemite Sam with a tablespace...although Yosemite Sam does wear incredibly definitive rootin tootin cowboy garb, so in that sense, he is "well-dressed".
In general, life is good, even in the bad times...
January 10, 2009 at 11:09 am
george sibbald (1/10/2009)
knausk (1/9/2009)
The conference was 4 days long that year. On the first day I thought to myself, "Man, these Harvard guys think they run the world." By the forth day I was saying, "Man, these Harvard guys run the world."we've only recently found out just how badly.............................
Appearances were certainly deceptive here.
For sure. One lady at the conference was sitting around listening to a bunch of guys, some VC guys, one a logistics/procurement guy for the US Army for Nato, myself, and others talking. We were all eating box lunches. Someone mentioned something about the Amish not having internet access. At this point the woman speaks up. She had been born Amish, but when it came time to be "confirmed" at like 18 or so, she had opted out, went to college and was at that time the manager for complex financing for the Bank of France, in Boston. She said, and I note that she wore no makeup, and a simple dress, "It never ceases to amaze me how the Amish can be so content in the face of so much change." Later it came out about her being raised Amish. I mention this because, in an Amish community, your clothes are pretty basic, and any success had better be credited to God and hard work, rather than one's self.
January 10, 2009 at 11:38 am
excuse my ignorance, I'm a Brit, and I have seen references to 'VC guys' throughout this thread. Whats one of them?
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January 10, 2009 at 11:44 am
george sibbald (1/10/2009)
excuse my ignorance, I'm a Brit, and I have seen references to 'VC guys' throughout this thread. Whats one of them?
VC - Venture Capital.
Jack Corbett
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January 10, 2009 at 11:54 am
Jack Corbett (1/10/2009)
george sibbald (1/10/2009)
excuse my ignorance, I'm a Brit, and I have seen references to 'VC guys' throughout this thread. Whats one of them?VC - Venture Capital.
You weren't the only one wondering, but I managed to figure out before asking. It would be nice if people would explain (define) acronyms when using them. Sort of like this, TLA (Three Letter Acronym). I sure do get tired of people who use TLA's without telling you what it means. Applies to any acronym actually. You can't assume that everyone knows what you are talking about. ASP is another one. We have one individual that if you mention ASP he immediately starts thinking Active Server Pages. Well, in the conversations he was involved at the time ASP actually meant Application Service Provider. I believe the correct term for these businesses now is MSP (Managed Service Provider).
January 10, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Jack Corbett (1/10/2009)
george sibbald (1/10/2009)
excuse my ignorance, I'm a Brit, and I have seen references to 'VC guys' throughout this thread. Whats one of them?VC - Venture Capital.
cheers Jack (and Lynn). Guess I should have worked that out, but I never got involved in .com bubble and the companies I have worked for are way too big to need that sort of capital investment!
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