January 9, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Stephanie J Brown (1/9/2009)
Sorry, I have to disagree with you.
Sorry, it sounds like you are agreeing with me. Professionals beginning their careers should pay careful attention to the business issues of their jobs. This is all just simple common sense.
Have a great day!
January 9, 2009 at 7:30 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
Stephanie J Brown (1/9/2009)
Sorry, I have to disagree with you.Sorry, it sounds like you are agreeing with me. Professionals beginning their careers should pay careful attention to the business issues of their jobs. This is all just simple common sense.
Nope, I'm not agreeing with you. You stated that our "advice" was harmful, I state that it is not. You have stated that everyone should dress the way you say, I have stated that each person needs to make that decision for themselves based on their own priorities.
There are some areas in which we agree, but many where we don't; or perhaps it is simply a matter of the way you have written some of your statements. You seem to favor absolutes which gives the impression that you feel no one else's opinion is worthwhile - only your own.
I, as with most on the thread, have stated our personal beliefs and positions; your responses have been, well, rude is the best word I can think of. And you select individual sentences out of context to try and "prove" your point, while insisting that it is the only valid view point.
I have interviewed people who brought similar attitudes to the interview, and I would not hire such a person for all the world, and I don't care what kind of suit they wore (Armani be damned), or what their technical expertise was. That level of arrogance is simply destructive in a team environment, which is where most of us work. I CAN find a qualified person who will enhance the team and bring more value to the company, and that's the person I'm going to hire. Personnel turnover is extremely expensive to a company, as most hiring managers know; finding a good "fit" is imperative. And each company must decide what "fit" encompasses. All the posters have acknowledged that if you want to work for a company with a suit-dress-code, then you will need to wear a suit. But that type of company is not your ONLY option.
The BEST advice is still to find a company that fits you as well as you fit it. Humans are adaptable up to a certain point, but unhappy people don't perform as well as happy ones; so if you want to progress rapidly in your career, find a company that is close to your "fit" - you'll provide better value to them, and learn more rapidly than you would at a poorly-"fitting" company.
Steph Brown
January 9, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Stephanie J Brown (1/9/2009)
Sorry, I have to disagree with you.
Well then I am sorry, I have to disagree with you. In fact, I will go so far to say that you do not know what you are talking about. This subject has many nuances that you appear not to be aware of. We are all navigating a landmine field that you apparently have no knowledge of. Any responsible reply would acknowledge these real issues, and would not promote your dogmatic view of reality. Go ahead and promote your dogma. Reasonable people have a more nuanced view of business reality.
Have a great day!
January 9, 2009 at 8:00 pm
It sounds like a Masters in HR may make one argumentative and defensive, and a bit of a dissembler.
The fact that HR Masters guy was able to weigh in on the thread all day long says his Friday was not too crowded with those complicated wardrobe, dress code, and business savy technical assessment decisions. I don't know about the MS but he definitely has the BS. And to be honest all I did today was read and throw logs on the fire.
I went to a conference once at Harvard University (the Internet and Society 1996). I was sitting in Sanders Auditorium ( I think that is the name), a civil war era stage with balconey etc. I was middle aged, 42, had short hair, a dull suit with bad tie, and I was in the midst of like 500 other suits that unlike me, had mostly all graduated from Harvard and apparantly were running businesses now all over the world. At this particular moment Bill Gates was speaking. He was telling the people how when he went to Harvard, before he dropped out, he used to sleep right up there, in the stage-right part of the balconey, during the lectures on the Illiad and the Odyssey. The day before, Scott McNealy had been speaking about taking a class in this auditorium about the Illiad and the Odyssey. Sitting to my left was a big biker guy dressed in black leather. He was pretty much the only non-suit guy, besides Bill and a few camera men. He was a little overweight, had really long hair and a beard. He turned to me and said in this really deep gravelly voice, "I used to work with Bill back when we started Microsoft. He really hates Scott McNealy".
I looked at him, biker dude, with a sort of dull surprise (to match my suit) and said, "Did you get rich at Microsoft?" And he said, "No, I got rich when I started Phoenix Technologies". (for those of you who don't know, Phoenix Tech at that time and for some time before that had a tight hold on the ROM boot chips in almost every PC. I suppose their hold has faded by now). Shortly after Bill spoke, maybe later that day or just before, it was 12 years ago so forgive my lack of accruate timeline, another guy I had never heard of spoke. His name was Neal Stephenson. Very nice fellow. After hearing him talk I went out and bought a book of his, Snow Crash. I think it was just a clever ploy by Mr. Stephenson to be pleasant and casually dressed, in order that I would then go and buy every book he has written. (And read them)....
By the way Bill also said, if he were sending his kids to college he would send them to UW Madison, because it was probably the best school in the world, (circa 1996). He elaborated on that for a while, perhaps mostly to dig a little at the Harvard brand. Madison is not really known as your suit and tie capital of the educational universe.
I am not sure what our HR friend would say to this, but I would encourage him to read Snow Crash, if he has not already done so. It is iconic and its characters embody the heart of this thread's discussion.
I rarely wear a suit, now. And when I do it is not a dull one, but it is comfortable.
January 9, 2009 at 8:11 pm
knausk (1/9/2009)
I rarely wear a suit, now. And when I do it is not a dull one, but it is comfortable.
I advised female technical professionals not to dress like men. Could you please explain how anything I said conflicts with what you said?
January 9, 2009 at 8:31 pm
I'll sum it up this way; for you, Appearance = Technical Expertise. If you look like a slob, you lack technical expertise and, in your opinion, don't know what you are talking about when it comes to your chosen career.
We, on the other hand, believe Appearance <> Technical Expertise. How you dress does not change the value of your technical expertise.
I think that puts it in a clear perspective for most everyone.
January 9, 2009 at 8:42 pm
I agree that your synopsis puts the subject in clear view for everyone. And if everyone agrees with you that technical design is the most important, then you win.
However, there is another big camel with his head under the tent, and that camel is business design. Business design requires business acumen. This is a big requirement that few here seem able to understand.
That deficient is fine. It is what keeps me in the dough. Keep on building systems with no good business design. Customers will continue to bring me in to clean up the mess.
On the other hand, we could all agree to acknowledge our own areas of expertise, and build systems that actually meet customer requirements. Agile, anyone?
Have a great day, friends!
January 9, 2009 at 8:44 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
The way they dress just screams, "I am a terrific technical performer with excellent business judgement, and I know what I am doing."
No flames here. Just compelled myself to read the currently 18+ pages of posts in this thread, and the thought dawned on me that some basic tenets have been anchors in the discussion, that may be mis-understood.
Please define (as used in this context):
- Technical Performer
- Business Judgement (or Acumen)
I ask this because it appears to make the case that how these examplees dress has something to do with their success.
While I must live in the world, I do of my own perception of necessity yeild to certain standards, including certain levels of dress standards within the environment, because I don't want some less informed person with quick judgement to attempt to try to attach some mis-perception of my ability, only by my clothing. This is essentially what I understand of some comments on this topic. Also indicated has been an interest of respect for another by dressing appropriately.
I respect that point of view. However, my respect is for different reasons: the relationships, not the perception.
If I were involved in say, some sort of temple worship, I would dawn the requisite clothing, first to give honor to that which I worship, and second to not distract fellow worshippers. However, I do not judge nor should I be judged of humility of worship merely by the garb worn, nor if I was more holy than a non-complier.
Judge a book not by it's cover.
Another analogy: I married the first time with my naive perceptions of care, love, looks, and other such "judged of others" stigmatisms. The marriage was a dismal failure, for what was in the package did not marry with what was outside. It felt like a living hell. The second time around, I cared not what was on the outside. Forcefully I threw far from me any thoughts of outward physical nature. I want to know what is on the inside, both in I and the potential partner, something that cannot be discerned by any form of physical adjudication. The results of this effort have been educational, rewarding, and beautiful.
So it is with hiring within a company setting, and in business venturing. No number of degrees, time expended, manner of dress, words spoken, or other outward adornments show anything about if an individual can deliver value to any situation or organization, or even this thread. All of that is cosmetic; it is superficial. One must go deeper, or risk losing the opportunity of a great one. This non-verbal communication, married with respect, goes both ways. All of the weak-world statistics cannot change the value that it is inherently wrong to judge someone by the way they dress their words or their person. The subjective statistics that lend credence to the vice does not, and cannot change the value. The fact that people do judge, does not make it acceptable to so do.
I respect the desire to communicate, not the perceived desire of others. While maintaining clothing in decent repair, I will, because I respect that communication, change what level I wear from day to day, within reason. I do not want the disrespect of being pigeon-holed as a techie, manager, laid-back, lackey, white-knucked decision-maker, enabler, pacifist, warrior, nor any other perception solely by my manner of dress. I only, define who I am, judged by God above, and I am responsible for the consequences. And so I attempt to maintain such communication, verbal and non-verbal.
To decide who is ready for any kind of leap, change, or stand, is up to the individual. I became an developer/analyst the day I decided to become one, long before I had the skills to do so. No certificate or degree I have or can earn, nor manner of dress made it so. Finding those that respect that trade with that relationship has been rewarding, whether in business 1 year or 30. In the end, the inter-personal relationships gained are to me far more important than any company, paygrade, power, or fame. That for me is "success".
If one judges me for my outward appearances, that one will never know me.
January 9, 2009 at 8:55 pm
You also seem to have another problem. I haven't said a thing about technical design. I have been talking about technical expertise, and these are two separate things.
Also, a system to support a business process isn't built by only a technical expert. It is built with the input of the users (read business). I don't care how well dressed you are, and how technically proficient you are, if you don't listen to and work with the users (the business) NO system you build will be correct.
But guess what, appearance again is not substance. How you dress is nothing more than fluff. What truly counts is your expertise, whether it is technical or business.
And THAT is what you do not seem to understand.
How you decide to dress is driven, NOT by your knowledge and expertise, but by the environment in which you choose to work.
Not everyone wants to work in a suit and tie environment. Not every company requires it. Every company has its own culture and environment.
Regardless of company culture, when I go to an interview, guess what, I dress up to make a good impression. But while I'm at that interview, I am going to be watching the employees and seeing how they dress. If it is obvious that the normal attire is business casual, guess what, if I start working there, I'm not coming to work every day dressed like I was for the interview. I will dress just like my counterparts so that I can start fitting in.
January 9, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Is Copeland an ironic pseudonym or is that your real name?
I didn't say you conflicted with anything. You did. You seem to invite conflict, seek it out. I was hoping the thread could focus on the possibilties beyond the artifice of surface dress, the skills that transcend mundane judgement by HR folks or narrow minded managers
I was trying to take the thread somewhere where it didn't involve just the one mode of discussion that you seemed -ell bent on pontificating upon. Something outside of hearing "I have a masters in HR". Perhaps, my limited grasp fails to appreciate your eloquence and your insight. Shine your light upon us, some more.
You didn't seem to profess much technical skill, but your sister has some you said, perhaps your wife. I have met a lot of people and worked at length with them, the ones that sounded like you were overbearing. That's all.
I was interested in a variety of the people's thinking here, but less so in listening to them focus on you.
Put another way, even an out of the box thinker needs a box, or else they wouldn't exist. You on the other hand are a very good box builder. Though, I could very well be wrong. If not, build a good box. Hopefully in a nice pin stripe carpenter apron.
January 9, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Good night all. Lynn P, dphillips, s brown, gcopeland, etal. Thanks for your insights. Mr. Copeland, you too, really.
I do encourage you all to get ahold of some truly well fitting clothes (metaphorically and literally), but as most of you seem to realize the real comfort starts inside.
January 9, 2009 at 9:26 pm
knausk (1/9/2009)
I went to a conference once at Harvard University... Bill Gates was speaking... Sitting to my left was a big biker guy... (snip to end).
Interesting to read; thanks!
A lot of contrasts there too:
- reference to beginnings as a college kid.
- casual Bill.
- suited audience.
- rich biker guy.
Appearances all, eh? The sheer imagination of such a scene makes me grin.
😀
Heh. Indeed. 😀
January 9, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Ron Kunce (1/9/2009)
Actually, I think the line of BS you have been giving everyone is being done purposefully to keep this thread going and amuse your own twisted sense of humor.
No. I assure you that this is not so.
Have a great day!
January 9, 2009 at 9:34 pm
The conference was 4 days long that year. On the first day I thought to myself, "Man, these Harvard guys think they run the world." By the forth day I was saying, "Man, these Harvard guys run the world."
Of course they don't really run the world, but boy, they run a lot of it. Glad you liked the imagery. If you have never read Neal Stephenson, he has imagery. Like dickens or Tolstoy. Truly amazing.
Some day a thread will focus on something close to what happens when you are on a contract and staying in a dive motel for a year or two, and I can tell you about "Bloomers".
January 9, 2009 at 9:35 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)Have a great day!
AND, what if I don't want too? I may choose to have ****** day.
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