January 9, 2009 at 5:01 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
GSquared (1/9/2009)
Couple of fallacies:The way that Gates and Ballmer dress is considered socially appropriate for executives. It says nothing whatsoever about technical skill. You're concatenating two thoughts into one conclusion.
Do you really mean to say that what Bill Gates wears says nothing whatsoever about his technical skill? You mean to say this about a programmer with unlimited resources and who wrote the first couple of versions of Excel in assembler?
Fallacies indeed.
Anyone who thinks writing in assembler is essentially more difficult than writing in any other language is not a very experienced application developer.
And Bill Gates forte was not his programming skills. He's gotten where he is because he is one of the best marketing men who's ever been born. He bought DOS and hired people technologically smarter than him to make it better. He faked out IBM so they bought DOS before it was ready to be used.
By the way, what part of the US are you from? My bet is it is the northeast or upper midwest, i.e., the bailout belt.
January 9, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
You are in a helicopter.
And you are in a sound chamber, listening to your own echoes. Welcome to reality, Lynn. Here, we have to pay bills and make payrolls. We have to deliver real value to customers who have money to pay. It is a tough way to make a living, but honestly, I don't know any other way.
Have a great day!
January 9, 2009 at 5:03 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
What I am saying, is I won't ignore the solid technical advice of an individual based on his appearance, where as you basically have said that you would. Solid technical advice is solid technical advice regardless of ones appearance.What I hear you saying is that you will use any technical performer like a whore. I, on the other hand, want to help him or her to develop his or her skills so that he or she is a solid technical performer in any businss venue.
Are we reading from the same thread?
I think it's great that you want to help individuals develop their skills, and I don't believe some of your points are totally without merit, but your focus appears to be primarily on fashion. You seem to want to paint every person and every company with the same broad brush, which just isn't practical.
A number of companies are using a casual dress code to attract and retain qualified employees, just as they are doing with telecommuting, four day work weeks, more vacation time, etc. All other things (i.e., salary) being equal, many people would opt for the more relaxed work environment. That obviously does not work for everyone, but I think those perks are becoming increasingly popular. I don't believe stating a preference for casual dress equates to a lack of business acumen or being a slob.
I totally agree with Joshua Perry that if I was in recruiting or HR, I would advise job seekers to look for a company that seems to be a good fit in terms of culture and business philosophy.
January 9, 2009 at 5:14 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)[Well then you never met me or my peers. We know what you should do, and as consultants, please don't try to hold us accountable when you ignore our advice and flame out.
I'd have to guess you've never met any of these folks or their peers, either. I've got 28 years in IT, have held to a dress code that works for me and has never involved suits every day nor make-up nor jewelry (unless I feel like it). Haven't flamed out yet. The CTO appreciates my work, and gives me raises, promotions, and ever more fun work to do. I make more money than I spend, and I can buy things I "want" (rather than "need"). Did it all without your advice.
The people on this thread are professionals with many years of experience, well-paying jobs, and the respect of their peers and their employers. I would say they know a thing or two about business accumen and technical expertise.
You have your own ideas, which is fine. But your responses indicate a lack of mental flexibility, and an inability to admit that others can succeed just fine without your advice. I suspect you may define "success" differently than most of us do. That does not mean we are not successful; it means we are different than you.
You've used words like "scientifically proven" and "no need to argue". On these forums, there's a saying: "Links, or it didnt' happen". You've only provided one. We've only your own statements about how wonderful and correct you are; if you said you were GOD himself, I wouldn't believe you either unless you could provide evidence. How about you actually try to educate by providing information, instead of dictating as though you were the god of HR or whatever? Otherwise the good folk of this thread will continue to ignore your "advice", except those who are trying to educate you right back.
I think I'll fly some of your responses past our Vice President of HR. She's got a degree, too, and I think she'd disagree with some of your perceptions. It will be interesting to see if SHE would hire YOU. (Based on such limited information as this thread.)
Steph Brown
January 9, 2009 at 5:18 pm
jpowers (1/9/2009)
He's gotten where he is because he is one of the best marketing men who's ever been born.
My point exactly. Bill Gates has the best business mind on the planet at present. It should be a national resource. What about this is a problem for you?
January 9, 2009 at 5:34 pm
majorbloodnock (1/9/2009)
Everyone has to break wind. When I'm on my own, I find it more comfortable to simply fart when I need to. Is it disingenuous of me to modify this behaviour when I'm in company? Certainly the impression could be misinterpreted as suggesting I'm never flatulent....
Gross but accurate.
--Paul Hunter
January 9, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Stephanie J Brown (1/9/2009)
Did it all without your advice.
I have already acknowledged that many of you expert performers are on a different level and do not need my advice. However, most of us are on a different plane than you, and your advice is not useful and is in fact harmful. If we are not on the summit of technical performance, if we are reading these forums and making decisions, it is likely that we are fighting for our professional lives. In those cases, your "advice" is mostly unhelpful, and is in fact sometimes destructive. Technical performers have a lot to offer to the enterprise. At this time, they should retrench, and determine what skills they have that bring value. Then, they should begin a marketing campaign that explains their value to everyone, and makes everyone think that they are indespensible. This is just a suggestion. Your mileage may vary.
January 9, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Copeland, what else does the box say???
January 9, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Jason Toews (1/9/2009)
Copeland, what else does the box say???
Jason, the business box says this:
Boohoohouah
Business is scary, and it takes people with strong backbones to make results happen.
Just do it. Only business results apply.
January 9, 2009 at 5:58 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
Stephanie J Brown (1/9/2009)
Did it all without your advice.
I have already acknowledged that many of you expert performers are on a different level and do not need my advice. However, most of us are on a different plane than you, and your advice is not useful and is in fact harmful. If we are not on the summit of technical performance, if we are reading these forums and making decisions, it is likely that we are fighting for our professional lives. In those cases, your "advice" is mostly unhelpful, and is in fact sometimes destructive. Technical performers have a lot to offer to the enterprise. At this time, they should retrench, and determine what skills they have that bring value. Then, they should begin a marketing campaign that explains their value to everyone, and makes everyone think that they are indespensible. This is just a suggestion. Your mileage may vary.
First, no one is indespensible. Once you start feeling that way, you better start looking for your next job because you aren't going to be around much longer.
Second, yes, bring value to your organization. The best way to do that is to enhance and improve your technical expertise and demonstrate that you can help solve your organization problems, because they are your opportunities.
Third, this has nothing to do with your appearence. Once again Appearence <> Technical Expertise.
January 9, 2009 at 6:07 pm
hmmm, Have it I do, Skywalker you are looking for great Jedi Master, yet you see him not before you...
January 9, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Mr. Copeland,
A famous author of late, once wrote "Whores and prostitutes should be measured as any other professional . . . Do they provide good service for the money!"
No one here has had any problem with Bill Gate's or Steve Ballmers appearance, dress or technical and business acumen. Only with your narrow viewpoint that, we as professionals should all strive to be Gates and Balmer clones. The tons of social studies that were performed to stipulate how professionals should dress, like assembler and the waterfall methodology, are all old and outdated. Times change and people change with the times. Professionals have learned to be flexible using iterative waterfall, RAD, Agility, Java, .Net, and also in their dress.
The situation dictates what one should wear. It depends on whom I am working and meeting with, the company standard and/or the acceptable norm at the time. If you have a company policy that stipulates business casual dress limits fine, and if I want to work their I will abide by those rules. However, if someone else has a flamboyant company image where all the employees are expected to wear Panama hats, Hawaiian shirts, and paisley shorts and sandals; I'll wear that too or find somewhere else to work. There is no strict, one size fits all, "IT professional" dress code!
Actually, I think the line of BS you have been giving everyone is being done purposefully to keep this thread going and amuse your own twisted sense of humor.
"Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand." -- Martin Fowler
January 9, 2009 at 6:16 pm
. . . and yes! All professionals including myself are prostitutes and proud of it!
"Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand." -- Martin Fowler
January 9, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Wow, I think this may be a record for editorials.
I have one more comment, Image is not just appearance, it is also attitude and getting along with others. Being close-minded and only considering your ideas as valid, would, in my opinion, not be projecting the a positive image.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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January 9, 2009 at 7:03 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
Stephanie J Brown (1/9/2009)
Did it all without your advice.
I have already acknowledged that many of you expert performers are on a different level and do not need my advice. However, most of us are on a different plane than you, and your advice is not useful and is in fact harmful. If we are not on the summit of technical performance, ...
Sorry, I have to disagree with you. Anyone who is at the beginning of their IT career is exactly where I was 28 years ago (in general, not in detail). Fresh out of college and looking for a job, yes I did wear a suit to my first interview because that's what the norm was back then. The norm has changed to a large degree at many, many companies. And I wore a suit (the same one) to my next interview nine years later. I did NOT wear the suit in between interviews unless specifically requested by my supervisor, but if they asked, I was willing (they pay well, and yes I'm a prostitute of my profession - I perform for pay). I dressed to the company code and moderated it to suit my style.
If you are saying that dressing in a certain way will help you when you're "fighting for your technical life", I'd have to say that depends on the company you are working for. If they think dress code is important, and you are one of two people who might be layed off, dressing up may let you keep your job while the other guy gets let go - assuming you have equal or nearly equal skills. But in a company where it's performance that matters, dressing up won't get you anywhere and may in fact cause the opposite effect - they'll think you're a suck-up and drop you like a hot potato.
(BTW, I'm using the "royal YOU" here, meaning anyone who is reading the thread, not just gcopeland)
Everyone needs to make their own decisions based on the information available to them at the time about their own situation - and that's what most of the folks on this thread are saying. We're not going to tell you how to dress for the company YOU work for, but you do have choices as in everything you do. Each person sets their own priorities regarding what kind of place they want to work, and it may include things like the industry, dress code, training opportunities, ability to move up, or down, or sideways, and so on. That's the advice we are giving, and it is completely valid and useful, because it allows anyone reading the thread to pick the pieces that apply to their situation and utilize them according to their needs and their personal priorities. It harms no one, since each person is responsible for their own decisions.
gcopeland believes we need to "retrench" in IT, and "market" ourselves. It could be the economy driving that, or maybe there are other ideas behind it. Marketing yourself is what you do everytime you send out a resume, or go for an interview. But I would encourage people to be truthful in their marketing of themselves, and to search out companies that are a good fit. Every time I hear "not everyone has your choices" I want to respond with "yes they do, if they WANT to have them" - and often if you dig into the "choices" question, the reason that person isn't as flexible is because other priorites in their life "prevent" them - things like needing to live near parents or family, wanting their children to remain in the same school, spouse not willing to relocate, etc. But sometimes it's from a lack of self-confidence - they just don't feel they're good enough to be wanted by a company! Sometimes clothes can instill confidence, and if a person needs that, it's all to the good for them to dress that part. But it's much better in my view to evaluate your skills, and build your self-confidence based on your abilites. Skills last much longer than suits, don't need to be dry-cleaned, and don't get eaten by moths. :hehe:
I do believe that at a corporate level, IT within a "brick and mortar" business has often failed to market IT as a business asset rather than a "drain on the budget" as it is considered at some companies. This brings harm to the company in the long run, but no amount of dressing up will correct that; marketing is a separate issue. It's why the Big 3 are in so much trouble right now - they used marketing to convice people to by SUV's because that's what the company was building, not because that's what the consumer really needed. And now that reality hath struck, all the suits in the world won't help. Congress was less impressed by the suits than by the mode of transportation to the first "gimme money cause I screwed up" hearing. Do note please, everyone, that the heads of the Big 3 took note, and changed to meet expectations! (It became a priority for them...)
Steph Brown
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