January 9, 2009 at 3:22 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
I have a question for you, do you judge the quality of the advice given by the way the individual providing it is dressed, or by the technical soundness of the advice itself?After a technical performer proves his value and expertise, of course I trust his judgement. However, why would any good performer want to saddle himself or herself with a poor business facade, especially when it is so easily overcome? Wear a pair of nice couderois to work, show that you are ready to substitute for your boss, be ready to provide sales support, what is the possible rational objection to that?
You know what? You should become a politician. I want to know if you judge the quality of the advice given by the way the individual is dressed, or by the technical soundness of the advice itself?
January 9, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Aaron N. Cutshall (1/9/2009)
The problem is that business and technical skills are NOT necessarily concurrent. I've worked with some fantastically astute business people who cannot even set their own watch. Conversely, I've worked with some very talented technical people who have trouble with their own checkbook let alone have any business acumen. You cannot draw a definitive conclusion about anyone based upon only a few characteristics. To do so otherwise is rather myopic. Fallacies indeed!!
I agree with everything you just said. Business and technical design are not concurrent, and they are necessarily so because they are two different things. That does not change the fact that both are required. Technical design without business design is pure research (or crap), and business design without technical design is pure fantasy. System analysis 101. In functional organizations, unknowlegable people call it a team.
January 9, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Wow! I looked just like Bill Gates at that time if only I had known him and had an interview. But, yes, he and I have changed a bit in attire. He beat me in wealth.
It's not what you know it's who you know, or a combination thereof. Technical people and "Decision Makers" are usually not doing interviews an hiring. But hopefully they are.
I sat in on interviews and advised my Supervisors and we got a good person. Lasted 3-4 years. Later, another Supervisor did not ask/allow me to. Then we had the highest turnover of 4-5 people in one year. They were going by looks, etc., now they give them knowledge tests.
January 9, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Just some quick follow up:
1) Yes, it is very hard as a woman to figure out the correct dress code. I often stick with cotton knit tops and black or tan chinos for business casual. Is that dressing like a man?
2) Jeans are uncomfortable on a person of my stature and I only wear them to fit in on fridays.
3) I agree, tanks/camis and tight leggings have no place in the office even on casual day.
4) The HR pov is useful and should be listened to. There's a multitude of studies showing that image/looks make a difference from hiring to promoting to firing to pay range, and none showing that it's 'stupid' to worry about it. If you really want to maximize your career, you should consider your image. Saying it doesn't matter is wishful thinking. Empirical evidence is against you.
5) Also, we don't all have the luxury of saying no to a job just because we don't like the dress code (or the desk placement, or the carpeting, or even the managers). Happy hunting those of you fortunate enough to pick and choose.
6) I still say Steve's dress is appropriate for the audience.
Thanks!
😎 Kate The Great :w00t:
If you don't have time to do it right the first time, where will you find time to do it again?
January 9, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
You know what? You should become a politician. I want to know if you judge the quality of the advice given by the way the individual is dressed, or by the technical soundness of the advice itself?
When a junior ignores the business advice of a senior, I always discount what he or she says. If you don't like my decision-making process, start your own company and make a fortune. Otherwise, get with our program.
Have a great day!
January 9, 2009 at 3:42 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
You know what? You should become a politician. I want to know if you judge the quality of the advice given by the way the individual is dressed, or by the technical soundness of the advice itself?When a junior ignores the business advice of a senior, I always discount what he or she says. If you don't like my decision-making process, start your own company and make a fortune. Otherwise, get with our program.
Have a great day!
So you'd ignore the solid technical advice of an individual if he didn't meet your standard of personal appearance. How shallow and superficial that makes you.
January 9, 2009 at 3:45 pm
katedgrt (1/9/2009)
Just some quick follow up:1) Yes, it is very hard as a woman to figure out the correct dress code. I often stick with cotton knit tops and black or tan chinos for business casual. Is that dressing like a man?
2) Jeans are uncomfortable on a person of my stature and I only wear them to fit in on fridays.
3) I agree, tanks/camis and tight leggings have no place in the office even on casual day.
4) The HR pov is useful and should be listened to. There's a multitude of studies showing that image/looks make a difference from hiring to promoting to firing to pay range, and none showing that it's 'stupid' to worry about it. If you really want to maximize your career, you should consider your image. Saying it doesn't matter is wishful thinking. Empirical evidence is against you.
5) Also, we don't all have the luxury of saying no to a job just because we don't like the dress code (or the desk placement, or the carpeting, or even the managers). Happy hunting those of you fortunate enough to pick and choose.
6) I still say Steve's dress is appropriate for the audience.
Thanks!
I value your input to this thread. My background is this: I have an MS in HRM, my wife is a technical performer, I have a 19 year old daughter, and my sister is a UNIX administrator.
Men have much more lattitude in this area. My advice to all female technical performers is to ignore everything you read on this thread. My sister frequently has to crawl around in overheads to pull cables. She has developed a fashion style that enables this while not looking like a guy. From memory: black leather sneakers, slacks, a blouse, jewelry, hair. I guess my only advice is this: do not listen to anything a man tells you on this subject, and further, do not ever dress like a man. If the company wants you to dress in corporate polos, insist that the get female polos for you. I am not joking, this is a crucial subject, as any of your sisters can tell you.
January 9, 2009 at 4:00 pm
I find that at every level of dress - business suit, business casual, jeans - it is easier for men to dress appropriately than for women.
Do other women feel the same way?
Define appropriate! I don't think it's easier for one gender or the other, and we all pick what we feel is appropriate. Although I have noticed that men's clothing in the business to business-casual arena tends to be in the dull color (brown, grey, navy, camo green) or pale pastel range - can't they make men's clothing in bright colors?
In my current job, we started business casual, with casual Fridays and "rewards" of casual days. About 3 years ago, my wardrobe needed serious updating (things were getting ratty around the edges, and too much navy blue), so I grabbed a girlfriend and went shopping (I hate shopping for clothes and need help; hardware stores are a different story...) Bought about $600 worth of very nice business casual clothes. And two weeks later the company prez declared casual all the time. :crazy:
So I wear jeans and whatever else I feel like. Since I spent the money, I wear those nice new clothes at times, but based on how I feel, not on what someone else's expectation is. And I've never been one to judge a person by the clothes they wear, unless they're wearing something totally inappropriate to the situation - like a swimsuit in below-zero weather while skiing (they're either crazy, or have really high metabolism and need to shed the heat).
Leggings, cammy's, mini-skirts, dyed hair, piecings, tatoos, I really don't care. The world changes, but people are the same - they are either capable or they're not, regardless of what they look like.
If I were to wear a suit to work, everyone would ask if I was going to an interview! :hehe: So I only wear one if I want to shake things up. If I was going on an interview, I'd ask the company what their dress code is, and dress appropriate, because by then I'd have known whether it was a company I wanted to work for or not (and no, I won't work for a "suit-and-tie" place either - stuffy is as stuffy does). If the interview goes well, I let the interviewer know at the end (where you get to ask YOUR questions) what my normal dress code is, and ask how they view that. It gives me the information I need to evaluate job offers; remember it's about fit in BOTH directions.
Even world leaders are now seen in polo shirts at certain times, and not just vacations. But for certain occasions, dressing up is still a "norm". Everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to be normal. 🙂
Steph Brown
January 9, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
So you'd ignore the solid technical advice of an individual if he didn't meet your standard of personal appearance. How shallow and superficial that makes you.
And your notion that personal appearance has no bearing on business decisions is just as shallow and superficial. Glad to meet you down here in the depths!
Have a great day!
January 9, 2009 at 4:10 pm
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
So you'd ignore the solid technical advice of an individual if he didn't meet your standard of personal appearance. How shallow and superficial that makes you.And your notion that personal appearance has no bearing on business decisions is just as shallow and superficial. Glad to meet you down here in the depths!
Have a great day!
What I am saying, is I won't ignore the solid technical advice of an individual based on his appearance, where as you basically have said that you would. Solid technical advice is solid technical advice regardless of ones appearance.
January 9, 2009 at 4:13 pm
And for the record, I may not wear a tie every day to work (I do wear one on occasion to keep some people guessing), but I always wear dress pants, dress shirt, and dress shoes to work.
January 9, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
What I am saying, is I won't ignore the solid technical advice of an individual based on his appearance, where as you basically have said that you would. Solid technical advice is solid technical advice regardless of ones appearance.
What I hear you saying is that you will use any technical performer like a whore. I, on the other hand, want to help him or her to develop his or her skills so that he or she is a solid technical performer in any businss venue.
Have a great day!
January 9, 2009 at 4:40 pm
No. I am saying that I won't discount his (or her) advice simply because of their appearance. I have listened to slick talking well dressed technical experts whose advice wasn't worth the time it took to listen to it. Appearance <> Technical Expertise.
January 9, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Lynn Pettis (1/9/2009)
No. I am saying that I won't discount his (or her) advice simply because of their appearance. I have listened to slick talking well dress technical experts whose advice wasn't worth the time it took to listen to it. Appearance <> Technical Expertise.
Well then you never met me or my peers. We know what you should do, and as consultants, please don't try to hold us accountable when you ignore our advice and flame out.
Have a great day!
January 9, 2009 at 4:58 pm
You are in a helicopter.
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