August 25, 2008 at 10:47 am
I think this is another of those things that has always been pretty much the same, but always seems to be getting worse as we get older. It's probably our memory and perspective about the past that's getting worse, not people's behavior.
I doubt that the percentage of people who try to get away with as little effort as possible is growing. Maybe there are just new areas to notice it in now (and better tools to identify it).
Also, it's not always obvious what constitutes cheating. Maybe we're counting instances of cheating that others honestly don't agree is cheating.
August 25, 2008 at 10:51 am
jpowers (8/25/2008)
I agree that it seems silly to force rote memorization of dates or how to do square roots manually when you can easily reference it on our ubiquitous computers. However, the Spanish class was trying to teach the students a language skill. How will that cheater fare when (s)he is in a foreign country which uses Spanish? What happens when the batteries die in the translator or (s)he is away from the available technology? It just hurts the cheater in the long run. It also forces the teachers to be more creative in coming up with cheat-resistant tests, such as in-class essays.
I know with that Spanish cheater she didn't care one bit about doing it because she had no desire to learn the language, she was only taking the class because it was required. That was just her rationalization, but you're right that it would've hurt her were she in a situation where she needed to know Spanish, such as an in-class essay. 😀
August 25, 2008 at 10:54 am
Bert (8/25/2008)
If feel sorry for those who believe that just because people do good things, they are good. History, and society at large bear me out. And as so many here have eloquently said, it takes sound, consistent instruction to overcome our natural inclination toward doing the wrong thing.
So evil people do good things? Kind of reverses the meaning of evil for me.
I grant you that people do wrong things, but I think that is verging on the topic of religion, and I don't want to go there in this forum.
My karma just ran over your dogma.
Seriously, it is evident that we do not always live up to our own ideals. (Just how does water boarding fit with "Truth, Justice, and the American Way"?) That doesn't mean that all people are inherently evil.
To get back on topic, I believe there are rules that need to be followed, and other black and white rules that are just silly. Is it cheating if you break the rule for carrying embroidery scissors onto an airline (they have a half-inch snip length)? How is such a pair of scissors more dangerous than the bare hands of someone who does karate?
When it comes to work, ethics have to flow from the top (hence the problem at Enron, when some truly twisted people affected the lives of many, many people). I think those who were fired for not cheating are the lucky ones, since they can always explain that part of their resume. Those who were with Enron the longest have dug the deepest pit.
August 25, 2008 at 10:56 am
I presume cheating has existed throughout history. However, I think the stakes are higher now than ever before with sports at all levels being a prime example. Further, I think cheating is more effective now than ever before with employment being a prime example (http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic555923-334-1.aspx). I think the stakes are higher and cheating is more effective because people are concentrating themselves in large urban areas. When the population was more widely dispersed people used to know each other and competition was not so intense. There was less motivation for cheating and more deterrence for trying it. In a small town it was hard to find enough players for a sports team. In a large city players have to be cut from sports teams and cheating works to get/stay on a team. In a small town there was often only one person for a given occupation. In a large city there are many people in the same occupation and cheating works to get/stay employed. I think cheating will only worsen as urbanization continues. Those who are unwilling to cheat are at a severe disadvantage.
August 25, 2008 at 11:03 am
Cheating and deception are as old as our biology. Chimpanzees practice deception:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E6DD173DF931A25753C1A961958260&sec=&spon=
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T24-4J2CNFN-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1
&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=7169de703b3bd54156f434be1d49daab
Editor: URL broken for formatting.
Is deception 'bad' or 'good?' That depends upon our point of view and the culture within which we operate. Being intensely social creatures able to navigate complex threads of relationships, it seems to me inevitable that deception should have evolved in the competition for resources: food, mates, etc... Framing the issue 'morally' hides the biology in apparant righteousness, which is itself a form of self-deception. See the work of Robert Trivers on self-deception.
Certifications, degrees and testimonials (another's word) are only indicators of probable success and should never be weighted as guarantees of it.
-Arnold
August 25, 2008 at 11:10 am
jpowers (8/25/2008)
Bert (8/25/2008)
If feel sorry for those who believe that just because people do good things, they are good. History, and society at large bear me out. And as so many here have eloquently said, it takes sound, consistent instruction to overcome our natural inclination toward doing the wrong thing.So evil people do good things? Kind of reverses the meaning of evil for me.
I grant you that people do wrong things, but I think that is verging on the topic of religion, and I don't want to go there in this forum.
My karma just ran over your dogma.
Seriously, it is evident that we do not always live up to our own ideals. (Just how does water boarding fit with "Truth, Justice, and the American Way"?) That doesn't mean that all people are inherently evil.
To get back on topic, I believe there are rules that need to be followed, and other black and white rules that are just silly. Is it cheating if you break the rule for carrying embroidery scissors onto an airline (they have a half-inch snip length)? How is such a pair of scissors more dangerous than the bare hands of someone who does karate?
When it comes to work, ethics have to flow from the top (hence the problem at Enron, when some truly twisted people affected the lives of many, many people). I think those who were fired for not cheating are the lucky ones, since they can always explain that part of their resume. Those who were with Enron the longest have dug the deepest pit.
Again, history is full of individuals characterized as evil who have done "good" things. And as you point out, people characterized as "good" have done evil things. Both of which stand to prove my point.
As to your karma, it concerns me not. My "dogma" is in fine shape.
Have you ever been stabbed? A half inch stab wound hurts about the same as a full inch, or 2 inches. It's lethalness all depends on location. The bottom line here is that if people treated the world as more black and white rather the shades of gray painted here, we would have a lot less cheating, lying, stealing, murder,...
August 25, 2008 at 11:13 am
When you turn off the light... is it still a light?
Some would say:
"When it's off, it's just something with wires and a switch... it's not being a light."
Some would say:
"It's still a light... it's just off right now."
I say: "Turn the sucker on."
LOL.
There are some who are *trained* to be honest.
There are some who *learn*, over time, the benefits (internal and external) of being in integrity.
And there are some who choose and trust in integrity, for a variety of reasons.
I see all 3 of the above operating in myself.
Without training, learning, or trusting, is there something "inherent" that would have you be a particular way? I don't think you'll find a human being who does not have training, learning or trusting, to test it on.
To me, the only reason to look at what's "inherent", is if you have a mystical way, some spiritual practice, that lets you draw upon that "inherent" positive, or conversely some personal way that you struggle with some "inherent" negative. I've known people who have one, and people who have the other, and I think many of us have both.
There's plenty of justification for both points of view. Please give each other a break.
August 25, 2008 at 12:33 pm
I happened to click on a tab in Maxthon that had a Digg story about He Kexin, the Chinese female gymnast under suspicion of competing in the current Olympics as an underage girl. An article on Wikipedia detailed some cases of age falsification that have occurred throughout the years. In all cases but one no one was ever penalized for it, even when the gymnast herself admitted some years later of the deception.
Sometimes cheaters don't get their comeuppance.
August 25, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Timothy (8/25/2008)
Sometimes cheaters don't get their comeuppance.
It's worse than that - look at Major League Baseball. Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Mark MacGwire, Jason Giambi, and so many more Steroid users not only do not get their comeuppance, they get paid millions to cheat, and then get a place in the record books and the Hall of Fame!
Who loses there? The entire sport, and the entire fan base.
August 25, 2008 at 1:00 pm
blandry (8/25/2008)
Timothy (8/25/2008)
Sometimes cheaters don't get their comeuppance.It's worse than that - look at Major League Baseball. Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Mark MacGwire, Jason Giambi, and so many more Steroid users not only do not get their comeuppance, they get paid millions to cheat, and then get a place in the record books and the Hall of Fame!
Who loses there? The entire sport, and the entire fan base.
That takes us back to the 'tolerance of cheaters'.
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
August 25, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (8/25/2008)
If you use Google to answer a question geared for your knowledge, such as an exam question, the Question of the Day, etc., then you're cheating.
I completely disagree about the Question of the Day. A lot of QODs including today's don't have correct answers or correct questions or correct explanations. The questions are submitted by members and are not QAed by the professionals. This is also not a knowledge measurment tool but a learning tool like homework questions or exam preparation questions. It is not a matter of points to me but a matter of learning the subject of the question. With QOD I would consider cheating if I would select an answer at random and wait until the correct (or incorrect) explanation comes up. The honest work in this case as well as with any homework would be to do research, reading on the subject and verifying your selection. This way you learn.
The example is the today's question with creating and using a stored procedure with the name GO. It may be entertaining but does not serve learning process. I did have to confirm with BOL that GO is a reserved keyword in 2 lists out of 3 and that it should not be used at all as an identifier.
I notice that a lot that people are losing their ability to do research independently and they rely on the ready answers from these tests, preparation tests and peers. I had a Microsoft class instructor with 16 Microsoft certifications who told the class that what she does is to buy the preparation test, print it out completely with answers, read the answers and go and pass the exam. Nice. By the common measurment it is not cheating: she prepared for the exam and she does not cheat during the exam. But is it better than do the research on the question before the answer is provided to you by the question writer?
Regards,Yelena Varsha
August 25, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Yelena Varshal (8/25/2008)
Steve Jones - Editor (8/25/2008)
If you use Google to answer a question geared for your knowledge, such as an exam question, the Question of the Day, etc., then you're cheating.... The questions are submitted by members and are not QAed by the professionals.
I haven't submitted a QotD, but this statement above does not sit well with me. I am pretty sure most of us who belong to this site (are members) are in fact professionals.
I will agree that some of the questions may have been poorly written, or that they were simply poorly understood.
😎
August 25, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Lynn,
what I mean is that a lot of people on this site are not SQL Server professionals. Some members -yes, and of a very high standards. But a lot of people are either newbies or come to this site in search of answers as you can guess by reading forums. No discrimination intended - I trully respect everyone who joins the site as I myself is a member of some other sites like accessmonster.com where I log in in search of answers. I am very glad when entry-level or intermediate level of SQL Server knowledge people submit a QOD. That makes them learn and that makes all of us review the topic and see if we know the material well. Don't forget, these people may be professionals in something else like marketing for example.
Also we have different areas of expertise. I am not good at warehousing at all!. And even if I am a professional is say, SQL Server administartion, I don't know all features of all editions and most certainly can make a mistake or simply a typo. If others review the question and QAed it, it will be less mistakes. I was once one of the reviewers for a couple of Transcender exams and I had a problem with at least 30 % of almost released questions for one of the learning tools Industry Leaders.
P.S. - had to correct this post too - made typos.
Regards,Yelena Varsha
August 25, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Bert - The bottom line here is that if people treated the world as more black and white rather the shades of gray painted here, we would have a lot less cheating, lying, stealing, murder,...
Science can be black and white, true and false, but most things related to human relations fare better in the gray. For people, the black/white hard line only works well if all parties concerned agree on what is black and what is white. Given the nature of most humans I know, that consensus is pretty well guaranteed to break down at some time. Most religious struggles, political struggles, gender and role struggles, and maybe even economic struggles have come closer to resolution after both sides give up hardline definitions and step into the gray.
My opinion only, your milage may vary. Void where prohibited. Best when used by 8/26/2008.
August 25, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Right and Wrong. Black and White in my book. Shades of gray occur in implementation, also known as justification. Sometimes, you have to agree to disagree.
If you want to know where I stand personally in many areas, there is one book you need to look at, and I'm sure you can guess what it is. But I am also a realist, and know that not everyone will agree with on everything, and I am okay with that. We are each entitled to our own personal beliefs. I am not a relativist in my ethics or morals, which means I disagree with most people who are (and believe in situational ethics; what is right in one situation is wrong in another).
😎
Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 82 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply