February 7, 2011 at 3:11 pm
I second Steve.
In a company I worked for the HR philosophy was "travellers should not be stopped".
If you think making more money at a different company is the best for you, go for it. But that's not directly related to your current job.
I think one valid reason to ask for a raise is to compare your skill level of the past (e.g. when you got hired) compared with the additional skills you have now the company will benefit from.
Another reason could be if you played a major role in a project that saved the company a significant amount of money.
Or if there are additional responsibilities.
Please note, each and every reason is related to your current job and your current employer.
If your boss would agree to give you a raise just because you have a better offer, what would prevent him to be asked again with the very same reason within a year, a quarter, or even a month?
February 7, 2011 at 3:14 pm
The only time I got real raises is when I gave my notice to leave, and I HAD to do it 3 times. It really shouldn't have been that hard for the company to realize they had to pay more for the skills they needed. I eventually left on the third time and did not even want them to match the salary at that point, and about 2 years later and 2.5 failed hirings, they finally found someone that has been there for about 6 months. Gosh my job must have sucked. But now my job is much easier and I get to work with new technology, best decision I've ever made.
But ya, I'd have to say, the only way I've seen people get good raises is to get a new job or you already have accepted a different job and they want to match. To me, its not much differrnt than going out and getting an estimate, and your probably doing your company a favor if they don't know they are underpaying you. Which to my shock, I actually think now that they didn't know.
February 7, 2011 at 3:24 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (2/7/2011)
I have gotten raises, and many of my friends, without going out and getting another offer. I didn't say looking, I said soliciting, meaning interviewing and getting another offer.If that has worked for you, good for you, but I've had and seen lots of success without playing one company against another.
I agree with that sentiment. Not a good idea to ask for a raise with a company you want to stay with by basicly showing them the offer letter that came from you looking for anther job.
This attitude must comes from the idea that it is hard to know what a product is worth until you take it to market.
February 7, 2011 at 3:27 pm
This is a great reason why businesses should use contractors or implement a contract-to-hire process. If you bring someone on and they are incompetent, you hit the eject button and get someone else. I'd rather replace a contractor every 3 months than deal with an incompetent liar.
James Stover, McDBA
February 7, 2011 at 3:29 pm
From experience, I found it really hard for me when I want to find a new job. I thought and prefer to let my future employer know my capability rather than convincing them that I am capable to do a job that I am not sure if I can do it. I feel guilty if I have to lie in order to get the job.
As a result, it always took me months before I can find a new job. This is especially hard during the economy downtime.
But I guess at the end of the day, it is also how you interpret during a job interview. Only if I can be honest and at the same time manage to convince the potential employer to employ me.
February 7, 2011 at 3:50 pm
James Stover (2/7/2011)
This is a great reason why businesses should use contractors or implement a contract-to-hire process. If you bring someone on and they are incompetent, you hit the eject button and get someone else. I'd rather replace a contractor every 3 months than deal with an incompetent liar.
Wouldn't it be easier to hire the right person in the first place? Over the last few years I've had interviews where I walked away and wondered how the manager or people that have just interviewed me kept their jobs. I've followed these companies and in most cases, every 3 to 6 months they are filling the same position again. Would you want to answer the question posed by your superiors as why you are constantly hiring to fill the same position again?
The people doing the hiring need to know what they are hiring for. They don't need to be an expert but they need to know what they are looking for. I've had interviews where I was given multiple page job descriptions and then show up for the interview and get asked about stuff that is no where to be found in the description. I've been contacted about jobs that require more experience than the software has been out.
Sorry to disagree, but the people doing the hiring and the hiring process needs to change.
February 7, 2011 at 4:10 pm
grc2264 (2/7/2011)
Wouldn't it be easier to hire the right person in the first place?
Excellent point. If you lie and don't get hired, shame on you. If you lie and get the job, shame on the hiring team. Too many interviewers don't prepare well, don't know the subject matter, and don't challenge the candidate. Often the line of questioning goes like this:
Interviewer: Have you used Replication in SQL Server?
Candidate: Yes, we use it in our CRM application at my current company.
Interviewer: Good. Next question.
A few months ago I helped a company hire a DBA. One candidate we interviewed had a resume that said he had implemented Merge Replication. I asked him what the business case was that had driven him to implement Merge Replication, since there aren't many. He answered by going into a long explanation of what Merge Replication is. I bluntly interrupted and said I was looking for the business case. He thought about it, and finally answered that you could use it for ATMs. But what was his business case, I asked once more? He didn't have one, and admitted he hadn't implemented it. This ended the interview.
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February 7, 2011 at 6:08 pm
I'll play, but with a slight twist, how about he scenario where the candidate did NOT lie, but the interviewers heard what THEY wanted to hear? "I've implemented SSRS and helped the dev group write the required queries, created views and sp's to support them etc" turned into "I am the undeniable master of BI - done it all, mastered it all, everything I touch is magic"......this was for a DBA position. After being hired it became obvious that what they were looking for was NOT a DBA. DBA related maybe, but they really wanted an analyst who could design cubes and implement data warehouses - a BI expert. Despite the posting being vanilla dba fodder.
As far as hiring the right person, I've been involved in the hiring process three times. I got to handle the technical side of the interviews. In each case I focused very little on specifics of the technology being hired for. I asked about concepts, give me the logic to solve this, explain that. It very quickly became obvious who crammed and who knew. I'll take someone that "gets it", "thinks like a dba/dev/techie" and knows how to google over the guy with all the certs who cant explain normalization, but knows where every option is hiding in SSMS. In each case the person hired was excellent and stayed for a long time - and we did end up hiring a guy who said "I dont know, I'd have to google that."
February 8, 2011 at 6:30 am
Tony Savoie (2/7/2011)
... In each case I focused very little on specifics of the technology being hired for. I asked about concepts, give me the logic to solve this, explain that. It very quickly became obvious who crammed and who knew....
I think you are right. This emphasis on a menu list specific details really bypasses what makes a good dba and a good employee... one that can handle real world tasks and come up to speed quickly. While working knowledge is essential, no one has all the task specific knowledge for your requirement before they start.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
February 8, 2011 at 9:20 am
Wouldn't it be easier to hire the right person in the first place? Over the last few years I've had interviews where I walked away and wondered how the manager or people that have just interviewed me kept their jobs. I've followed these companies and in most cases, every 3 to 6 months they are filling the same position again. Would you want to answer the question posed by your superiors as why you are constantly hiring to fill the same position again?
A number of years ago I went through an interviewing process where the hiring manager asked 2-3 of his technical people to do short interviews with a candidate. The manager rotated his staff so they all got a chance to ask questions of different candidates. It was obvious some these guys just didn't know how to do this, even for 5-10 minutes. One guy was so perplexed that he didn't know where to start with me. So I just carried the conversation; bringing up topics and answering rhetorical questions. "Asked and answered" :laugh: I didn't get the job :ermm: It was a tough time in the industry.
February 8, 2011 at 11:38 am
Tony Savoie (2/7/2011)
After being hired it became obvious that what they were looking for was NOT a DBA. DBA related maybe, but they really wanted an analyst who could design cubes and implement data warehouses - a BI expert. Despite the posting being vanilla dba fodder.
This has happend to me ALOT! I would get hired for Report writing projects and given DBA responsibilities.
Managers will get a budget for position dba and try to fill thier Vacant hi dollar BI and business analysis reporting positions cause it's all the same thing?
I actually heard this said by a manager that works for a Software company in my building.
"Why can't I employee a cheap outsourced DBA and ask them to complete our BI and reporting projects? They are basicly the same thing and cost less" :crazy:
February 8, 2011 at 1:18 pm
I've never embellished or lied in an interview or on my resume, but I'm definitely done being intimidated by job requirements on postings. So many times they list everything and the kitchen sink, and I know they either 1. Really don't need all that or 2. Will never get close to finding someone for under 200k. 'Requirements: 10 years DBA / BI with 5 years .NET and Java ... for 75k/yr' Hahahaha! Are you serious?
Now I just submit and interview when I can fill 50-70% of the requirements. When they hit a topic I have never done, I tell them what I know and that I'd have to google / read up on it. On occasion I've told interviewers about my past experiences buffing up on topics very quickly, which usually ends with 'I don't think you could ask me to do something I couldn't learn fast enough to accomplish before the deadline.'
The job I had before my current position I had to put my money where my mouth was. Hadn't ever worked with SSRS, and needed to generate about 15 reports in 2 weeks, with also never having been previously exposed to the company's data or industry. It was definitely a challenge and I had some pretty massive anxiety, but I learned it and got it done. Now I can proudly say my SSRS skills are pretty awesome.
Same thing happened with my first Data Warehousing gig. From zero to 'good enough' in just a couple weeks. How else do you break into a new career or major area in our field? Isn't the paradox you need to get the job to have enough experience to get the job you need experience to get? There's no such thing as a Jr. position anymore.
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My SQL Server Blog
February 8, 2011 at 1:30 pm
Regarding job descriptions with too many technical requirements and resumes full of bogus experience, in many cases it's the result of a 3rd party recruiter acting as an intermediary and in the process adding the embelishment on one or both ends.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
February 10, 2011 at 10:33 am
Rayven (2/7/2011)
I can agree with the last two posts.Agencies can be sods. I interviewed a guy for one position and when I asked him about his experiences with one technology he openly admitted that he had never dealt with it in his life. It was on his CV, and this was the first time the poor guy had see it - the agency had added it on because (as he found out later and told us) "it improved his chances of getting a job".
I went in for an interview once; the resume the agency had given them had buzzwords on it I'd never heard of; some of them directly contrary to what I'd told the agency. I explained honestly to the interviewers what happened, and where I had the experience, and where I didn't, and that I could learn quickly.
Never heard back from the employer, and the agency wasn't terribly happy with me either.
Let no one kid you; ethics hurt fairly often, and definitely in the short term. That doesn't mean they're not worth having.
February 10, 2011 at 11:48 am
Nadrek (2/10/2011)
Rayven (2/7/2011)
I can agree with the last two posts.Agencies can be sods. I interviewed a guy for one position and when I asked him about his experiences with one technology he openly admitted that he had never dealt with it in his life. It was on his CV, and this was the first time the poor guy had see it - the agency had added it on because (as he found out later and told us) "it improved his chances of getting a job".
I went in for an interview once; the resume the agency had given them had buzzwords on it I'd never heard of; some of them directly contrary to what I'd told the agency. I explained honestly to the interviewers what happened, and where I had the experience, and where I didn't, and that I could learn quickly.
Never heard back from the employer, and the agency wasn't terribly happy with me either.
Let no one kid you; ethics hurt fairly often, and definitely in the short term. That doesn't mean they're not worth having.
I've been on the other side. I had more work than time, so my boss decided to hire a temp to assist me. I got to see a few resumes and help with the first selection; I was not at the inteview.
Once the candidate was chosen, I quickly found out that his resume was severely bloated. It listed experiences that were true - five years earlier, and for such a short time thathe had completely forgotten all about it. It also contained plain lies.
I informed my boss about this and advised him not to do business with that agency again. I have no idea if he followed up on the advice.
(And the candidate learned fast enough to be a valuable help; plus, he and I became friends for a couple of years, until our lives diverged too much)
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