March 5, 2010 at 12:22 pm
Jack Corbett (3/5/2010)
I think a cert without experience means nothing. A cert validates your experience and the experience validates the cert. If you are already known as a top-level person (Grant, Gail, etc..), then the cert is unnecessary.
Well said Jack.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
March 5, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Grant Fritchey (3/5/2010)
I recently interviewed at a company where it was made pretty clear, just how little I know. You're only as good as your experience and the information you've been exposed to. Can I talk to query tuning? Sure. Can I talk to BI data modelling? Uh, no.
IMO, This is the reason for screening... if this experience was needed for the job, you shouldn't have even made it to the interview stage...
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
March 5, 2010 at 1:25 pm
GilaMonster (3/5/2010)
Jack Corbett (3/5/2010)
If you are already known as a top-level person (Grant, Gail, etc..), then the cert is unnecessary.When you're bidding for work (consulting), a collection of qualifications can make the difference between getting the project and not. Often the people who are deciding which company scores the contract don't know who's who in the DB industry. They know the big-name consulting companies and, if you're a smaller company competing against the big names, titles and achievements make a big difference.
Also, if your company has or is aspiring to MS partner status, they are required to have a certain number of certifications held by employees. Higher the partner level and more specialities, the more certifications are required.
Good point. I guess my point was that if you can put on your resume/CV that you are the author of books A and B and then point to places where someone says book A is a book I use all the time. That helps you get a job. Or if they search your name and they see reviews of your book and that you spoke at the PASS Summit, etc...
Actually had a discussion with Andy Warren about knowing the Who's Who in the industry. He basically said that if you polled the attendees at a SQL Saturday a large % would not know who Paul Randal or Kalen Delaney are. It would actually be an interesting thing to try.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 5, 2010 at 1:35 pm
Jack Corbett (3/5/2010)
Actually had a discussion with Andy Warren about knowing the Who's Who in the industry. He basically said that if you polled the attendees at a SQL Saturday a large % would not know who Paul Randal or Kalen Delaney are. It would actually be an interesting thing to try.
That is kinda sad in reality. There are certain people throughout the industry that one should have an inkling about. Maybe they know them, but don't know that they know them.
Interesting thing to try.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
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March 5, 2010 at 1:36 pm
Jack Corbett (3/5/2010)
GilaMonster (3/5/2010)
Jack Corbett (3/5/2010)
If you are already known as a top-level person (Grant, Gail, etc..), then the cert is unnecessary.When you're bidding for work (consulting), a collection of qualifications can make the difference between getting the project and not. Often the people who are deciding which company scores the contract don't know who's who in the DB industry. They know the big-name consulting companies and, if you're a smaller company competing against the big names, titles and achievements make a big difference.
Also, if your company has or is aspiring to MS partner status, they are required to have a certain number of certifications held by employees. Higher the partner level and more specialities, the more certifications are required.
Good point. I guess my point was that if you can put on your resume/CV that you are the author of books A and B and then point to places where someone says book A is a book I use all the time. That helps you get a job. Or if they search your name and they see reviews of your book and that you spoke at the PASS Summit, etc...
Actually had a discussion with Andy Warren about knowing the Who's Who in the industry. He basically said that if you polled the attendees at a SQL Saturday a large % would not know who Paul Randal or Kalen Delaney are. It would actually be an interesting thing to try.
I've done that and it's true. All these people that we think are really, big names... well, they are, but the reach is not as big as you would think it would be. I was surprised when talking to a recruiter that they'd never heard of the MVP program. You'd think publishing books, making MVP, speaking at PASS, would be advantages, but they aren't necessarily.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
March 5, 2010 at 1:38 pm
WayneS (3/5/2010)
Grant Fritchey (3/5/2010)
I recently interviewed at a company where it was made pretty clear, just how little I know. You're only as good as your experience and the information you've been exposed to. Can I talk to query tuning? Sure. Can I talk to BI data modelling? Uh, no.IMO, This is the reason for screening... if this experience was needed for the job, you shouldn't have even made it to the interview stage...
I told the screener I didn't think I was qualified.
Based on my experience interviewing people... you take the chance. If someone looks decent or close... you take the chance.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
March 5, 2010 at 1:50 pm
Jack Corbett (3/5/2010)
Good point. I guess my point was that if you can put on your resume/CV that you are the author of books A and B and then point to places where someone says book A is a book I use all the time. That helps you get a job. Or if they search your name and they see reviews of your book and that you spoke at the PASS Summit, etc...
My boss (well, MD of the company) did that. Was around Oct last year, he was sitting in meeting with potential client and manager-type asked him "So, what can your resource do that <big consulting company>'s people can't?"
Boss turns laptop around so that manager-type can see and shows three web sites
1) Spotlight speaker list for Pass summit
2) Deep dives author list
3) My MVP profile.
"This."
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 5, 2010 at 1:54 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (3/5/2010)
Maybe they know them, but don't know that they know them.
No. Don't know them and don't care. The "I just want to do my job, I don't need to learn more than I know now" type.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 5, 2010 at 2:09 pm
I disagree with Gail there.. usually those types are actually who thinks that they know it all. What they do not know is that they do not know anything... :hehe:
-Roy
March 5, 2010 at 2:16 pm
GilaMonster (3/5/2010)
No. Don't know them and don't care. The "I just want to do my job, I don't need to learn more than I know now" type.
Really sad.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 5, 2010 at 2:35 pm
I don't have any SQL certs. Kind of plan to get some one day, but it'll be when I need one most likely. Haven't come across that need yet.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 5, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Been in the business for quite a while, and have no certifications. It did not prevent me from consulting / contracting and otherwise be consistently employed. I may have seeked one or two certifications had they been more popular when I started in this business, but there is nothing that compares to solid experience even when you shift from one software to another (IBM to MS). Many of the basic principles carry over.
As many have said, it is nice to have certifications to show commitment to ones career especially for a person who just started a career in a competitive and remunerative field such as IT. However someone with a college degree can acheive the same initial effect with a bonus of a more rounded education.
That said, I have met some people with a long list of characters after their names who could not impress anyone. Usually their were teaching, but had no or very limited practical experience to rely on to answer practical questions.
The persons who are excellent at their jobs, no matter the discipline, will be excellent whether they are certified or not, and they will not need to post an alphabet soup after their name to show they are qualified.
March 5, 2010 at 7:40 pm
Grant Fritchey (3/3/2010)
I think this really comes to down to personal preference and/or experience. Here's my 1.5 cents:I am not certified. Based on my current job, salary, experience level, and experience interviewing for other jobs, I'm unlikely to become certified in the near future. I might change that attitude in the future if I were to move into consulting (for whatever reason, it seems more important there).
My attitudes towards those that are certified? That's nice. But if I don't know them, I'm going to assume less knowledge from that individual instead of more based on the number of times I've interviewed people with multiple certifications who absolutely did not know the job of a DBA or the technology involved in any way that would lead me to want to hire them.
Ditto... ditto... ditto... [font="Arial Black"]DITTO[/font]!
I won't regale you good folks with all the nightmare stories I've been through with interviewing people because I've already posted them a dozen or more times. While I'm sure that there must be some good people out there like Mr. Corbett and several of the SS Ninja's on SSC that embrace the true spirit of certification and actually practice "the arts", I've certainly not had the pleasure of meeting any during interviews I've had to conduct and I haven't met any on the job that could actually do anything other than knock their ring on the table.
I've been extremely soured on the idea of certifications and even degrees. I don't care how many letters there are after someone's name, their resume better show that they've either done something worthwhile or have the potential to do so and, to me, the letters behind their name are not necessarily a good indication of either. Saying that certs and degrees show initiative to learn new things means nothing to me because it simply hasn't been demonstrated to my satisfaction in the folks that I've had to personally deal with on the job or as a candidate for employment. In fact, quite the opposite has been true in my observations... the occasional SQL Server black belt or Ninja that I've had the pleasure of working with have NOT had certifications of any type and only rarely have a degree in any even remotely related field.
Maybe I've just been unlucky but I'd much rather have someone tell me that they've got the SQL Server Developer Edition installed at home and they practice SQL problems every night rather than telling me they've been a professional student on the subject and have earned a cert or two.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 6, 2010 at 1:06 am
browser went kabloowey and posted a bad post plus the subsequent post
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 6, 2010 at 1:09 am
Jeff Moden (3/5/2010)
Grant Fritchey (3/3/2010)
I think this really comes to down to personal preference and/or experience. Here's my 1.5 cents:I am not certified. Based on my current job, salary, experience level, and experience interviewing for other jobs, I'm unlikely to become certified in the near future. I might change that attitude in the future if I were to move into consulting (for whatever reason, it seems more important there).
My attitudes towards those that are certified? That's nice. But if I don't know them, I'm going to assume less knowledge from that individual instead of more based on the number of times I've interviewed people with multiple certifications who absolutely did not know the job of a DBA or the technology involved in any way that would lead me to want to hire them.
Ditto... ditto... ditto... [font="Arial Black"]DITTO[/font]!
I won't regale you good folks with all the nightmare stories I've been through with interviewing people because I've already posted them a dozen or more times. While I'm sure that there must be some good people out there like Mr. Corbett and several of the SS Ninja's on SSC that embrace the true spirit of certification and actually practice "the arts", I've certainly not had the pleasure of meeting any during interviews I've had to conduct and I haven't met any on the job that could actually do anything other than knock their ring on the table.
I've been extremely soured on the idea of certifications and even degrees. I don't care how many letters there are after someone's name, their resume better show that they've either done something worthwhile or have the potential to do so and, to me, the letters behind their name are not necessarily a good indication of either. Saying that certs and degrees show initiative to learn new things means nothing to me because it simply hasn't been demonstrated to my satisfaction in the folks that I've had to personally deal with on the job or as a candidate for employment. In fact, quite the opposite has been true in my observations... the occasional SQL Server black belt or Ninja that I've had the pleasure of working with have NOT had certifications of any type and only rarely have a degree in any even remotely related field.
Maybe I've just been unlucky but I'd much rather have someone tell me that they've got the SQL Server Developer Edition installed at home and they practice SQL problems every night rather than telling me they've been a professional student on the subject and have earned a cert or two.
I once had somebody recently complete certification by going through one of these bootcamp deals. Listed as previous experience - Rope Maker. Another was a truck driver trying to make the transition with an MCSE and no IT experience. It is very difficult to even bring those people in for an interview, unless it is an entry level position.
Thus if the Letters are couple with Experience - no harm. And for some places, the letters help break through the front door for an interview.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
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