February 13, 2008 at 1:53 pm
I believe you're correct. So they take the lazy way out (which, since they're in charge, they can do). But the corollary is that HR and most managers don't really know how to tell who is doing a good job and who isn't, who's worth more money and who isn't.
February 14, 2008 at 12:11 am
In my experience, it's a corporate culture issue. Definitely a question to ask during the interview! My current company hired me for Y2K remediation (aka 12 hour days 7 days per week for almost 2 years), but with a bonus at the end. And technically we have "comp time", which means we can take off early for Dr appointments, kid's concerts, etc. I've seen it go all different ways in my 10 years here.
After Y2K, it was 40 hour weeks, and if you worked a few extra hours you took a few off. (And we do track ALL our hours, even though we're salaried!) Then came one of those insane projects, and it was 60-hour weeks for almost 2 years - and no bonus, or even a thank you! Didn't go over well with me, I'll tell you that. This last year it was 40 hour weeks, with the occasional couple extra hours and then take a couple hours extra off. Yes, they WILL work you as long and as hard as you let them, so YOU have take control over that. It's just a matter of what your priorities are (every one has different needs, don't expect the company to know what yours are).
Now it's back to crazy hours, which I'm tolerating for the sake of a new CTO and learning some new software and "agile programming" techniques. I expect the CTO to follow thru on his promise of compensation, either in time off (my personal preference) or $$$ (which is okay too, I need to remodel the bathroom). If that promise should fall thru, then I'll know to stick with the 40-hour weeks again. I'm not really into working without compensation - all the benefits are going in one direction, and that would be the wrong direction! 😉
Steph Brown
February 14, 2008 at 1:37 am
I've worked in various software jobs, including those where you knocked off after midnight and started again at 8 ish but now I'm a civil servant and the formalisedways are a great advantage as we have strictly clock on and off flexi time.
Time is treated like a bank account - you credit what you work and debit what you take off and at the end of each four week period you have to be within -10 hours to +18 hours, with a standard week being 37.5 hours. There's core time where you have to be in (10-12 and 2-3:30) or account for the time (leave, duty elsewhere etc) and you can only take a total of two days flexi leave per period.
Annual leave (25 to 30 days) can also be used.
It's brilliant and a major reason for staying in a low paid job. Sickness absence is vastly reduced as you don't need excuses to take time off and you can start late or finish early without question when needed and lunch can be from half (compulsory) to two hours so those jobs can get done.
February 14, 2008 at 2:08 am
Robert I strongly agree with you.
I worked for three companies now and at the moment a choose to work 32 hours, just for the same reasons as you did.
I wonder if the boss who is expecting you to work more than 40 hours, how will he act in a shop where he sells 3 beers. Does he expect to get four?
The same is with hours. If you work 40 hours you had to do that, no less.
Of course there are sometimes things that have to be done extra and that must be possible. It’s good for the business. But not for free.
Dewes.
Dewes van Lohuizen,
DBA at CSC Netherlands
Private interest: www.mikondo.nl
February 14, 2008 at 2:19 am
I've mentioned in posts on other threads that I'm rather fortunate as regards the attitude of my employer (company or management team - take your pick).
I and my peers have to be available during our stated work hours (I work 8 - 4), purely so other people know when as well as where to find us if necessary. Other than that, the only time anyone takes note of my time attendance is if I'm still at my desk past 4pm, when my boss or boss's boss may well "encourage" me to shut down and clear off.
Basically, come PDR time, we're appraised on how effective we've been, not how much effort we put in, and that's the way I think it should be.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
February 14, 2008 at 2:28 am
Out of interest, if your employer 'expects' you to work more hours than they pay you for, what valid reasons do they give to justify their requirement of your personal time?
In my experience with previous employers over the last 20 years, the real reasons for requiring me to work unpaid overtime have been unrealistic planning / target setting from above, or unrealistically low staffing levels.
IMHO, If I choose to work extra hours, say, to get a project done on time because I want to (as I regularly do), then fair enough. If I am being told that the company expects me to work additional hours (through a direct or indirect request) then why not compensate me with overtime pay or flexi time?
Luckily I am at the stage in life when I will happily look for a new job rather than put up with 'management through fear and intimidation'! Currently I am lucky to work for an excellent manager who inspires me to volunteer to work extra hours when I think they are necessary, and who treats flexible working hours as a two way street between employee and employer. He calls it a 'social contract' style of management. I wish more managers adopted this style.
February 14, 2008 at 7:44 am
If you're salaried, then there isn't "unpaid overtime." That's the reason for a salary, or part of it. They might require extra time or they might not have 40 hours some week and rather than calculate it out, they pay you a set amount.
Most of my employers have said we have to work extra at times because of deadlines or things breaking. It's sometimes abused by employers, but it hasn't been too often for me. And I would push back if it's arbitrary. Meaning we want something finished by Tuesday because we do. If that's the case, it will get done or it won't, but I'm not likely working Sunday to finish it.
If there are contracts, regulations, etc. that might require a harder time, then I'd work longer. But that would be short term. I would let them know in the interview that I'm not working 60 hours every week.
February 14, 2008 at 9:31 am
I take your point about unpaid overtime.
For the first eight years of my working life I was salaried, and had a standard company contract which stated hourly rates of overtime pay for all additional hours worked above the standard 36 hours. The more unsociable the hours, the greater the reward. Oh happy days!
Mind you, I generally no longer work 70+ hours per week , and I don't work all through the night at weekends any more 🙂
February 14, 2008 at 9:51 am
In my experience, employees just starting out in the IT industry are more likely to be victimized into working an insane no. of hrs.
I started out a few years back as a developer for a small software shop, and I was warned of the company's work "ethic" in the interview. Still I went for the job because it was difficult to find another one with my lack of experience. 2 1/2 years later I got fed up with the relentless pressure of the employer to work long hours and weekends, and I ended up quitting.
I am now DBA at an energy-services company, and here the policies are much more humane.
As a DBA I am often required to work late (mostly connecting from home) til the wee hrs of the morning for product releases, maintenance etc. I accept this since DBA work often needs to be conducted after hours. But the company also recognize this and let me stay home the next day!
They are also very flexible and understanding with my family obligations etc.
A question to everyone:
"Is it true that a software house is more likely to abuse their employees than a company in which the IT dept serves an internal role only and nothing more?"
__________________________________________________________________________________
SQL Server 2016 Columnstore Index Enhancements - System Views for Disk-Based Tables[/url]
Persisting SQL Server Index-Usage Statistics with MERGE[/url]
Turbocharge Your Database Maintenance With Service Broker: Part 2[/url]
February 14, 2008 at 11:22 am
Steve Jones - Editor (2/14/2008)
Meaning we want something finished by Tuesday because we do. If that's the case, it will get done or it won't, but I'm not likely working Sunday to finish it.
"If I'd wanted it tomorrow, I would have asked for it tomorrow."
February 14, 2008 at 12:30 pm
We have a 39-hour working scheme, similiar to the one of P Jones with "gliding" hours. Start between 8 and 9 am, stop between 4 and 5.30 pm.
With flexibility for major operations.
February 14, 2008 at 1:38 pm
I had worked for two software companies and the hours were decent.
It all depended on the company and the management.
I worked for big company (fortunate 500 company) too, it had a deadline for every project, not only I worked insane hour, it did not let employee to take time off during the implementation period.
February 14, 2008 at 5:44 pm
I tell every company I interview with:
I believe in a 40 hour week. I get my work done and if it is going to take longer than my 8 hour work day and can be left to the next day - I finish it then. BUT if the job requires me to put in extra hours - I will do so gladly. I have worked 12+ hour days because of a crisis like a database server crashing and will always stick around when it is needed, even if it is to help another DBA out of a jam. However, I don't work extra hours just to say I worked extra hours.
No employer has ever stated they had an issue with that, most even stated they agreed with me. I have never had a problem getting hired saying that.
-SQLBill
February 15, 2008 at 1:48 am
I'll second SQLBill's sentiments!
Part of the reason my management team look after me is, I'm sure, because they know I'm prepared to reciprocate. I'm sure we've all got war stories about having "gone the extra mile" (my longest stint was a stretch from about 8am one day to around 9pm the following day - not something I often have to do), but anyone with an ounce of sense will realise you can't get that kind of dedication from someone by force.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
February 15, 2008 at 6:42 am
I'm totally on board with the notion that in a crisis situation I need to be there for my workplace.
I also think I am a fairly ambitious and driven individual, willing to go the extra mile.
However, I have a young family, and they come first. Companies need to be sensitive to the needs of each individual employee - that's one of the main duties of a good management and HR team - and realize that employees need to be treated EQUALLY but not necessarily THE SAME.
I'm not saying single people live in wonderland. BUT - on average - people with a young family struggle to keep their career in focus as it is, and companies that want to retain their talent need to be sensitive to that.
There is no way I would be able to work 24 hrs straight, even if I personally wanted to do that. I just have too much on my plate besides work.
__________________________________________________________________________________
SQL Server 2016 Columnstore Index Enhancements - System Views for Disk-Based Tables[/url]
Persisting SQL Server Index-Usage Statistics with MERGE[/url]
Turbocharge Your Database Maintenance With Service Broker: Part 2[/url]
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