August 14, 2011 at 4:26 am
The cert exams are set with the expectation that anyone writing them has 2-3 years of experience with whatever topic the exam covers...
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
August 14, 2011 at 12:23 pm
GilaMonster (8/14/2011)
The cert exams are set with the expectation that anyone writing them has 2-3 years of experience with whatever topic the exam covers...
Ha-ha I don't know if I could muster that up in a few months. So basically I just need to stick out BI and take my time with it then.
August 14, 2011 at 4:05 pm
<Sorry if I repeat, skipped many posts>
BI is by far the hardest job I've had. You need to know EVERYTHING about the business to do a good job. Even a competent BI dev will need 1 year to get acquainted with a new business (seen it over and over again). And those guys have university degree in business & / or analysts.
That's after you've mastered the tools, the new versions, sql and optimization.
IM<NS>HO you're taking the path of most resistance. I'd really go with the sql dev junior jobs with a good mentor (and interview the mentor before I accept the job).
Certs is just a piece of paper, it doesn't mean you're any good at doing your job. It won't really help get the job and it certainly won't help you keep it if you can't deliver once hired.
It's great to keep self learning and that will definitely help you over the years, but I wouldn't focus on that piece of paper right now.
August 14, 2011 at 4:56 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (8/14/2011)
BI is by far the hardest job I've had. You need to know EVERYTHING about the business to do a good job. Even a competent BI dev will need 1 year to get acquainted with a new business (seen it over and over again). And those guys have university degree in business & / or analysts.
100% agree.
I do consulting work ranging from SQL dev, database design, database administration, performance tuning, HA/DR planning and BI. Of all that, BI is the one that is the hardest work, the most time consuming and frankly the most difficult. And that's with close on 12 years experience in IT, 8 of that in databases.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
August 14, 2011 at 5:18 pm
The best way to gain any skillset in IT is to get a position that needs something you know how to do and something you don't know how to do, but want to learn. Then you volunteer to do the thing you want to learn. Smaller companies or non-it departments in larger companies are the best places to do this kind of thing. I started out doing secretarial work, but when they needed someone to do computer-generated slides (pre-powerpoint) I volunteered. Then they needed some small Access databases and again I volunteered. I then leveraged that to documentation and programming jobs.
I learned enough to do these other things first, but with no experience I didn't look for those jobs right away. I found jobs that I had enough experience for and that would likely require things I wanted to learn. Experience and the ability to interview well will always be more valuable than a cert. Don't worry about the certs, if you get good at what you're doing, you can take the certs later. Learn as much as you can and emphasize in interviews both your love of learning new things and your success in teaching yourself things on the job. If you can show that you may not know a specific skill or answer, but know how to go about finding out, you'll get a job that'll let you learn.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
August 14, 2011 at 5:45 pm
If that means anything... I've been working in IT for 8 years, never got certified and never was a issue to not get the job.
The only times I got refused was because of lack of experience (that coming from a non-it HR person). Person which couldn't understand the select, insert, update, delete and views had been around for 15+ years and that 99% of my experience with 2000 was transferable to 2k5 and the rest was easily self teachable with books online and google or current staff.
I got a no but I got a better yes somewhere else anyways so I don't complain ;-).
August 14, 2011 at 7:13 pm
Ok, I'll keep this concept in mind. I really don't mind working outside of IT for a bit and getting the ropes. I knew that taking BI might be difficult, but I am a business student. I will eventually get a minor in finance and a corporate law degree. I figure the business part wouldn't be so difficult. However, the technical part has provided some problems for me. I knew that it would take me longer than I was actually giving myself. At any rate I need to slow down and get some real world experience. I personally would like to get the certification down the line.
I'm being very sincere when I post the following comments, would not having a certification and being a young black male add as a counterproductive force for me? This is one of my primary concerns. I fear not having the accreditation will actually make me look like an unqualified person. I just want to roll the path of least resistance.
Thanks for the patience.
SQL Kidd
August 14, 2011 at 8:08 pm
SQL Kidd (8/14/2011)
I'm being very sincere when I post the following comments, would not having a certification and being a young black male add as a counterproductive force for me? This is one of my primary concerns. I fear not having the accreditation will actually make me look like an unqualified person. I just want to roll the path of least resistance.Thanks for the patience.
SQL Kidd
<mini rant>
All I'm hearing from you is yes but, yes but, yes but and yes but. I was like that once and I never got where I wanted to go because I ignored all the help I was offered.
You say you'll have a business degree and a degree in law. What the heck does programming & BI have to do with all that? There's just no connecting points in there.
It seems to me like you don't know what you want to do with yourself and that's why you're struggling at the moment (yes I've been there too, 2 depressions, out the work, the whole shebang. Bottom line is that I'm happy now and everything happens easily for me, 99.99% of the time).
To all who it may apply. Stop it with the racism. It's even worse when you do it to yourself.
This is a private little room. Nobody knows anybody for real. We don't have your picture and frankly I couldn't care more or less if you were anything else than that "color".
You said YOURSELF that you were black and that this is a disadvantage. How do you expect yourself to ever accomplish anything with such a limiting belief? You're likelier to self sabotage good opportunities than anything else.
I really wish for you that this is not the case but I would really take the time to analyse this from a couple angles.
I don't even have to answer the question in your post because you unconsiouly did it already. In your own words, getting that cert is counterproductive. No I don't believe this is a typo, I believe that this is exactly what you needed to hear and just ignored all those months.
I sincerely with for all guests of this planet, yes all gazillions of them, that we focus on what is unique in us and what we can gift the world. Stop it with the I'm worse / better than you because I tan more than you.
August 14, 2011 at 9:20 pm
Yeah I'll leave my garbage off the site.
August 14, 2011 at 11:51 pm
SQL Kidd (8/14/2011)
This is one of my primary concerns. I fear not having the accreditation will actually make me look like an unqualified person.
At this point you are an unqualified person, but a cert is not going to magically change that. Experience > Certs. A cert is not going to make people fall over themselves to hire you. More likely they'll toss it in the bin muttering 'another paper certification'
If you don't believe me then ... http://www.brentozar.com/archive/2009/04/certifications-are-the-icing-on-the-cake/
I really need the money,...
IT is not a gold mine. It is not going to pay you a fortune just because you can do the basics or have a qualification. Hasn't been like that for 10 or so years (since the .com bubble burst)
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
August 15, 2011 at 5:44 am
SQL Kidd (8/12/2011)
I totally get you and agree with you! Let me be even more brutally honest with you. I loathe technology! At best my heart can be described at its core as a naturalist. Now don't get me wrong, I like technology to an extent! I like being able to turn my computer on and look up my subscription to well... pleasurable websites.
That’s about it! But one of my biggest motivations during this entire process has always if I could go to my choice school. I live in the Southwest Suburbs of Chicago and want to move down to Champagne Urbana so that I can go to U of I.
I will honestly admit that I am going down there for all the wrong reasons. I am going for the 20 year old reasons instead of the good wise 40 year old reasons. I'm going there because there are night clubs, bars, and well… women as far the eye can see! This has undoubtedly been my source of motivation. I get up every morning thinking about my home with tons of gorgeous coeds cooking me breakfast every morning. It’s a damn tempting offer! But even this isn't enough to inspire my 21 year old mind to wrap my head around SQL.
Well, any thoughts I may have had about helping you find an internship just disappeared. No matter what career field you want to move into, you might want to rethink the way you both think about women and talk about them - because some of the folks you might need to network with *are* women.
And I don't think there are too many of us who are going to want to be a) called a coed or b) cook you breakfast.
And that's before I take into consideration the fact that you don't actually *want* to be in this field.
-Ki
August 15, 2011 at 5:44 am
To ditto everything everyone else has been saying to you...
Two months to get a cert?? You do realize how many exams are involved in getting certification, right? It's not just one.
I came from a retail / customer service background with no professional IT (as in paid) experience. It took me 2 & 1/2 years to get my first cert and during that entire time, I built myself a small office / home office network with SQL Server and trained every single minute of the day that I wasn't working in my day job. I volunteered at work for doing computer support (not what my job description had), and volunteered to help friends set up new wireless networks, fix PCs, etc. Anything I could get my hands on, I supported. I learned how to write reports in SSRS before many companies were even using it (trained myself at home) and did everything I could to break my SQL Server setup.
Then I started taking exams. Yes, I got my cert. Yes, it did help because I didn't have a paid background in IT work. But you know what else helped? All that volunteer work I did. All that SOHO work at home I did. My honesty in interviews saying "I haven't done it in a real work environment, but I did X, Y, and Z on my home network."
And then I got a help desk position. Not a DBA position. This was in 2004, right after the big tech bust where businesses were backlashing against "certified" tech people because too many of them had a cert and too few of them had real knowledge. I got a help desk position, proved myself in IT, worked up to contracting junior DBA positions (and learned a lot more like real replication, etc.), then got my current position as a regular honest-to-goodness DBA position.
While you should not be self-sabotaging yourself, you should also not have such inflated expectations of the job market or your skills. I let someone do that to me and it nearly derailed my entire IT career. It will take you a solid 2-4 years of training and low-ranking IT positions to pay your dues enough to even look in the direction of a Junior DBA position. Start at the bottom and work your way up if you really want into IT, but don't expect a couple of months of studying and one exam pass to get you anywhere close to your goal. That's completely unrealistic.
Tell your father that the job market isn't what he thinks it is. Because it's not. There are a lot of good people out of work these days because their employer went bust and no one wants to hired the unemployed. You need to have a side job while you're studying. Do not just sit on the sidelines, because the longer you are unemployed, the more unemployable you will be, even if you do end up getting the certification.
Grab a help desk position or some other low-level IT job. Look for ones that might have you supporting a SQL Server environment (if you can find them), but if they're not available, just pick something. Anything to keep the money coming in and to make sure you aren't left in the dust as someone who can't get a job.
Then, in your spare time, study for your SQL Server certification. Build yourself a home network with SQL Server, run through the exercises and tutorials a dozen times or more. Break the server so you can learn how to fix it (mistakes better made on a SOHO than a real production environment). Take your exams (plural!) and get your cert. Volunteer to help out with anything that might get you more IT knowledge, attend SQL Saturdays and monthly user group meetings. Speak at the meetings once you feel comfy with your knowledge (that's a good way to get employer attention). And let things go from there.
August 15, 2011 at 5:49 am
Kiara (8/15/2011)
SQL Kidd (8/12/2011)
I totally get you and agree with you! Let me be even more brutally honest with you. I loathe technology! At best my heart can be described at its core as a naturalist. Now don't get me wrong, I like technology to an extent! I like being able to turn my computer on and look up my subscription to well... pleasurable websites.
That’s about it! But one of my biggest motivations during this entire process has always if I could go to my choice school. I live in the Southwest Suburbs of Chicago and want to move down to Champagne Urbana so that I can go to U of I.
I will honestly admit that I am going down there for all the wrong reasons. I am going for the 20 year old reasons instead of the good wise 40 year old reasons. I'm going there because there are night clubs, bars, and well… women as far the eye can see! This has undoubtedly been my source of motivation. I get up every morning thinking about my home with tons of gorgeous coeds cooking me breakfast every morning. It’s a damn tempting offer! But even this isn't enough to inspire my 21 year old mind to wrap my head around SQL.
Well, any thoughts I may have had about helping you find an internship just disappeared. No matter what career field you want to move into, you might want to rethink the way you both think about women and talk about them - because some of the folks you might need to network with *are* women.
And I don't think there are too many of us who are going to want to be a) called a coed or b) cook you breakfast.
And that's before I take into consideration the fact that you don't actually *want* to be in this field.
Wow. I completely missed the "women" comment. Dude, you just shot yourself in the foot by publicly posting stuff like that. The internet is forever. Employers know how to use google and those who find this post, especially if they are women employers or have a big female team, will instantly cross you off their "to hire" list.
Not to mention your comment about loathing technology. Who will hire you for an IT job if you hate working with tech? They want people who love their jobs, employees they can retain, not someone who's going to quit after 5 months because they hate working with gizmos.
I take back every bit of advice I just gave you. If you loathe technology, don't even bother getting into the field. No one wants to work with a coworker who hates the stuff he works with and will build up a resentment of everything IT because he was forced to be in the field. I know someone who fell into IT in college and hated every minute of it, but kept getting IT jobs because it was the easy career path. His anger issues got out of control and made life miserable for everyone around him. Needless to say, he ended up getting canned from a few places before he got the message and found the career he really wanted.
August 15, 2011 at 5:51 am
Kiara (8/15/2011)
No matter what career field you want to move into, you might want to rethink the way you both think about women and talk about them - because some of the folks you might need to network with *are* women.
Wonder if he realises how many ppl on this thread are female...
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
August 15, 2011 at 5:59 am
Kiara (8/15/2011)
SQL Kidd (8/12/2011)
I totally get you and agree with you! Let me be even more brutally honest with you. I loathe technology! At best my heart can be described at its core as a naturalist. Now don't get me wrong, I like technology to an extent! I like being able to turn my computer on and look up my subscription to well... pleasurable websites.
That’s about it! But one of my biggest motivations during this entire process has always if I could go to my choice school. I live in the Southwest Suburbs of Chicago and want to move down to Champagne Urbana so that I can go to U of I.
I will honestly admit that I am going down there for all the wrong reasons. I am going for the 20 year old reasons instead of the good wise 40 year old reasons. I'm going there because there are night clubs, bars, and well… women as far the eye can see! This has undoubtedly been my source of motivation. I get up every morning thinking about my home with tons of gorgeous coeds cooking me breakfast every morning. It’s a damn tempting offer! But even this isn't enough to inspire my 21 year old mind to wrap my head around SQL.
Well, any thoughts I may have had about helping you find an internship just disappeared. No matter what career field you want to move into, you might want to rethink the way you both think about women and talk about them - because some of the folks you might need to network with *are* women.
And I don't think there are too many of us who are going to want to be a) called a coed or b) cook you breakfast.
And that's before I take into consideration the fact that you don't actually *want* to be in this field.
Wow, if I had seen that part of a reply by SQLKidd I never would have bothered offering advice. Here's the new advice
1) Stay out of technology. With that attitude you're only going to cause problems.
2) Grow the hell up. Try cooking your own breakfast.
3) You want to become a lawyer? From other things you've said, you're doing it entirely for the money, right? Just what America needs, another lawyer.
4) You might want to look around you and see how much of the world you live in is only possible because of technology.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
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