July 27, 2012 at 3:52 pm
bclyde-1080677 (7/27/2012)
Jeff Moden (7/25/2012)
bclyde-1080677 (7/25/2012)
I have a few full-time DBA positions open on my team, one of which is for a Sr. DBA. We have had a hard time finding qualified candidates to fill the position and I need the help sooner than later. The salary and compensation package is very good and the ability to advance, in one's career and skills, is great, but we just don't have that many applicants. What am I doing wrong, or what more can I do?I suspect it's simply due to a lack of information. For example, you ask what you're doing wrong above but give us no idea of what you've actually done nor any clue as to where we can see the job description to see if we can help. In the post you made just prior to this one on another thread, you told folks to check the SQL Jobs forum on this site for a great job. Which of the dozens posted there might it be?
If you want to attract good people, you've got to be a wee bit more forthcoming with information about the job. You also have to trust me that if your the one trying to hire a good DBA in Atlanta for only 75-85K, you'll probably end up waiting for quite a while.
Guilty as charged. You can't get much help when you post for advice but don't give any details. I added my company's job posting in a link above, but the job posting here in the SQL Jobs forum is the only one under the heading "SQL Server DBA". It is the Senior Database Administrator for Melaleuca in Idaho Falls, ID.
And no, this is not for a job in Atlanta, and for a true Sr. SQL DBA we will gladly pay more than what you mentioned.;-)
Whose definition of true Sr. SQL DBA? I consider myself a true Sr SQL DBA (Hybrid actually, Admin/Developer) but I unfortunately don't have production experience with clusters or replication. I have worked in a clustered environment, and I have set up replication in lab/POC environment to see if it would meet our needs. Most environments I have worked, as well, I had very little interaction at the OS level. In a past position I did install and configure Windows NT 4.0 (tells you how long ago), but that responsibility went away as network/os work was centralized from database/application development work.
I have setup database mirroring in a SQL Server 2008 EE environment. Was most enlightening and actually fun to accomplish. Actually selected it over windows clustering for HA as it offered several advantages: during failover the mirror become available much quicker, SQL Server 2008 EE allows page level errors to be corrected automatically, redundent copy of data immediately available (good if the never will crash SAN should decide to crash).
Built intregration processes between systems (both in-house and vendor hosted) using SSIS, some of which required some moderately complex processing.
July 27, 2012 at 3:52 pm
derek.colley (7/26/2012)
My advice would be to hire a company to find a DBA for you.
Sorry Abel but this is god-awful advice. I recently got involved in a round of recruitment for a new DBA and the companies (agencies) we contacted just could not come up with the goods. When I asked around at the UK User Group in Manchester a few weeks ago, everyone agreed, agencies just aren't the right way to find a good DBA.
What you need to do is leverage the existing talent in your team to write an award-winning job description, and price it up appropriately - don't be cheap, aim between the mid-range and top pay for the sector. I don't know where you're based, but in London a DBA will earn £35-£50k and a senior DBA £45-£65k. If I were recruiting a senior DBA in London I would pitch the job at £50k and I'd expect to be negotiating upwards with the candidate. Evangelists will earn even more through consultancy. Contract rates fluctuate between £280-£400 per day.
The job description will need to be very specific in the areas in which you wish the applicant to be competent, but broad enough to cover multiple subject areas. It's certainly not a good idea to go Googling for a standard job spec.
Bad example:
* The applicant must be competent with SSRS, SSAS, SSIS.
Good example:
* The applicant must have knowledge and experience building SSIS workflows, creating DTS / SSIS packages, and deploying these to a production environment. In addition, the candidate must have experience in designing and building OLAP cubes, an excellent knowledge of data warehousing, and experience in creating custom reports in Visual Studio. Ideally the candidate will hold a Microsoft BI-related professional qualification.
+1
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
July 27, 2012 at 3:56 pm
I'd probably consider relocation, but only under two circumstances right now: 1) unemployed with no opportunities locally, 2) my youngest has graduated high school (4 more years).
I have great job right now, though I'd be willing to work part-time (15-20 hours per week, flexible - nights/weekends) doing remote DBA/Development work.
Could always use some extra cash.
July 27, 2012 at 3:58 pm
If I may....
That's not a job for one. That's a job for 4 people, or at least it reads that way. I'd be very cautious applying for that.
Just a few extracts...
Provide technical expertise in database design, development, and administration as well as integration with other technologies
So you want an architect, developer and DBA all in one. That's going to turn a lot of people off straight away. I can fill one of those well and two poorly, at best.
Develop, approve, and monitor detailed designs, specifications, and standards.
Architecture job.
Ensure continuous 24 x 7 x 365 database operation.
By myself?
Solid knowledge of ETL processes and techniques using SSIS
Make that architect, database developer, DBA and ETL developer.
It looks like no one proof-read that ad, it's duplicated half way down. There's also very strange English in several places (Experience monitoring and fine-tuning system performance and optimizing SQL code.). "Experienced in" would read better.
My suggestion (and feel free to ignore me), go through that and decide what you absolutely must have and what's nice to have. Then revise the ad and break down the absolute musts from the nice to haves, make it clear what's optional.
p.s.
Good math skills (add, subtract, multiply, and divide).
No calculators?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 27, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Michael Valentine Jones (7/27/2012)
GSquared (7/26/2012)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/26/2012)
derek.colley (7/26/2012)
My advice would be to hire a company to find a DBA for you.
Sorry Abel but this is god-awful advice. I recently got involved in a round of recruitment for a new DBA and the companies (agencies) we contacted just could not come up with the goods. When I asked around at the UK User Group in Manchester a few weeks ago, everyone agreed, agencies just aren't the right way to find a good DBA.
I'd disagree. In the US, they are hit and miss, but they do hit. Not sure it's better/worse than you doing it alone.
Use agencies/recruiters, just don't use them exclusively.
I'll second Steve on this one. I've had recruiters get me into jobs that weren't even DBA work but were listed as such and interviewed as such (which was weird), but I've also had them get me great jobs.
I've also seen it from the hiring side. The recruiter that got me my current job has provided 6 great team-mates at this place, and 1 complete disaster. The "complete disaster" (a) didn't get very much done, and (b) all of it had to be scrapped and re-done from spec by others, and (c) had ethics issues, and (d) was divisive in the team (tried to create conflicts and blame others, that kind of thing). If that person had been the first one brought on by that recruiter, I can't imagine the company would have ever used that recruiter again, and would probably feel about him the way you seem to feel about recruiters in general. BUT, every other person sent to us to interview by that recruiter has been top-notch, so he's definitely worth working with. (After "the disaster" was fired, we informed the recruiter. That agency won't ever work with "the disaster" again, because their rep matters a lot to them, and he hurt it.)
So, they can be good, and they can be bad, and even the best recruiters can have an off-day and let an unqualified person through or pick the wrong opportunity for a good person. But my experiences with them have been mostly good.
I can't imagine you are going to find many candidates with that level of experience in an area with such a small population, or candidates who are willing to relocate there. You should probably consider candidates who would like to work remotely.
The job description is pretty unfocused. Several sections are repeated entirely. If I was looking for a job, it would have turned me off by the end of the first paragraph.
Identify a few critical things you must have and put them right up front, instead of having a 50 line laundry list. Take the rest of the nice to have stuff and put it at the end.
You really need to give some clue about the potential salary range; "Pay Rate $0.00" is no going to attract many candidates.
There is a requirement to "Relocate to Idaho Falls, ID", but no mention of relocation expenses, so that will be a big turn off.
I think the bolded items are very important. I would strongly consider the telecommute option. You can get people to travel there on occasion for important meetings if you allow them to telecommute.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
July 27, 2012 at 4:06 pm
SQLRNNR (7/27/2012)
Michael Valentine Jones (7/27/2012)
GSquared (7/26/2012)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/26/2012)
derek.colley (7/26/2012)
My advice would be to hire a company to find a DBA for you.
Sorry Abel but this is god-awful advice. I recently got involved in a round of recruitment for a new DBA and the companies (agencies) we contacted just could not come up with the goods. When I asked around at the UK User Group in Manchester a few weeks ago, everyone agreed, agencies just aren't the right way to find a good DBA.
I'd disagree. In the US, they are hit and miss, but they do hit. Not sure it's better/worse than you doing it alone.
Use agencies/recruiters, just don't use them exclusively.
I'll second Steve on this one. I've had recruiters get me into jobs that weren't even DBA work but were listed as such and interviewed as such (which was weird), but I've also had them get me great jobs.
I've also seen it from the hiring side. The recruiter that got me my current job has provided 6 great team-mates at this place, and 1 complete disaster. The "complete disaster" (a) didn't get very much done, and (b) all of it had to be scrapped and re-done from spec by others, and (c) had ethics issues, and (d) was divisive in the team (tried to create conflicts and blame others, that kind of thing). If that person had been the first one brought on by that recruiter, I can't imagine the company would have ever used that recruiter again, and would probably feel about him the way you seem to feel about recruiters in general. BUT, every other person sent to us to interview by that recruiter has been top-notch, so he's definitely worth working with. (After "the disaster" was fired, we informed the recruiter. That agency won't ever work with "the disaster" again, because their rep matters a lot to them, and he hurt it.)
So, they can be good, and they can be bad, and even the best recruiters can have an off-day and let an unqualified person through or pick the wrong opportunity for a good person. But my experiences with them have been mostly good.
I can't imagine you are going to find many candidates with that level of experience in an area with such a small population, or candidates who are willing to relocate there. You should probably consider candidates who would like to work remotely.
The job description is pretty unfocused. Several sections are repeated entirely. If I was looking for a job, it would have turned me off by the end of the first paragraph.
Identify a few critical things you must have and put them right up front, instead of having a 50 line laundry list. Take the rest of the nice to have stuff and put it at the end.
You really need to give some clue about the potential salary range; "Pay Rate $0.00" is no going to attract many candidates.
There is a requirement to "Relocate to Idaho Falls, ID", but no mention of relocation expenses, so that will be a big turn off.
I think the bolded items are very important. I would strongly consider the telecommute option. You can get people to travel there on occasion for important meetings if you allow them to telecommute.
Just an FYI, where I work now, we have developers and DBA's working in CONUS in several geographically dispersed locations: Colorado, Virginia/D.C., Florida for sure. Plus we have people deployed overseas (Germany, Afghanistan, Korea to name a few).
Works quite well.
July 27, 2012 at 4:36 pm
GilaMonster (7/27/2012)
If I may....That's not a job for one. That's a job for 4 people, or at least it reads that way. I'd be very cautious applying for that.
Just a few extracts...
Provide technical expertise in database design, development, and administration as well as integration with other technologies
So you want an architect, developer and DBA all in one. That's going to turn a lot of people off straight away. I can fill one of those well and two poorly, at best.
Develop, approve, and monitor detailed designs, specifications, and standards.
Architecture job.
Ensure continuous 24 x 7 x 365 database operation.
By myself?
Solid knowledge of ETL processes and techniques using SSIS
Make that architect, database developer, DBA and ETL developer.
It looks like no one proof-read that ad, it's duplicated half way down. There's also very strange English in several places (Experience monitoring and fine-tuning system performance and optimizing SQL code.). "Experienced in" would read better.
My suggestion (and feel free to ignore me), go through that and decide what you absolutely must have and what's nice to have. Then revise the ad and break down the absolute musts from the nice to haves, make it clear what's optional.
p.s.
Good math skills (add, subtract, multiply, and divide).
No calculators?
Agreed 100%
Too many qualifications. I would recommend that same thing as above, pick a few must haves and a few pluses. Reading the job description, it sounds that everything is a requirement and it's a big turnoff.
July 28, 2012 at 8:30 am
Having now looked at the posted job description, I agree with what most of the others have stated especially in Gail's post. It would also appear that the person you're looking for needs to wear a fifth hat for Windows Administration.
In particular, if a person submitted a resume with obvious duplication, questionable use of language, and a couple of other things that you have in your job description, would you hire them or think that they're not paying attention to something very important?
Just like a resume, your company just hasn't put its best foot forward to attract qualified candidates. You "resume" (job description) for the company shows no attention to detail, the content is an overwhelming description of a one person superstar that needs to know everything except how to write a front end, and some of the requirements are copied straight from someone's HR manual showing a cookie-cutter attitude. No one I know would want to work in such a place.
To top it all off, the company has another "stigma" to overcome. Melaleuca is an "MLM" or Multi-Level Marketing company. While I know that there are a large number of reputable MLM's (I used to work in IT for one), there are a lot of people that don't. Many consider them to be nothing more than pyramid schemes and I'm sure that you're well aware of what that term implies. No... I'm not saying that Melaleuca falls into that category. I'm just saying that the stigma of MLM's is another hurdle that you need to overcome to attract candidates.
So, what do you do?
The first thing is to straighten out that God-awful job description. It has to be one of the worst I've ever seen. Get rid of the duplication. Reword the requirements so that it seems that someone having some pretty decent skills can actually do the job. Keep in mind that there are different types of DBAs and that most of them "don't do Windows" and a lot of them don't want anything at all to do with things like SSIS suggesting that maybe you should post more than one job description for different areas of expertise. Identify the structure of the team, how many people are on the team, and what a typical day might be like for someone on the team (the 24x27x365 thing scares the hell out of people unless they know they'd be a part of a full-up team responsible for such a thing). Include a photo or two of the team and the environment they'd be working in. Maybe include a photo of the server room (if you have one). And if you really want to attract someone, stop playing games with the salary. You currently list the salary as zero dollars. You know what you need in a candidate... show what you'd be willing to pay for such a rockstar. Post the Salary you expect to pay. Posting something like "Salary commensurate with experience" would be another load of hooie that would keep people away as would posting a wide-range salary. You're trying to hire good people that actually know what they're doing. Like the web site says, you're a Billion dollar company with explosive growth. Show them now what they'd be worth.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 28, 2012 at 11:30 am
Jeff nailed it. The description and visual formatting need a lot of work, and I think you've gotten great advice above. I am a distributor for a competing MLM company and I know the stigma. This ad needs to be top notch - maybe if you have friends in the marketing area, ask their input on wording or general visual impact. Don't go overboard, though - it's a job ad, not a sales sheet. I say that because your PR/marketing people already know how to word things just so, to cut the MLM stigma out of the equation.
And from a job ad perspective, I used to look at salary, but what I really want to know is, is this worth 10 hours of my time to apply, interview, etc, or will this company pay half of what I consider market rate? Make sure you mention the team aspect - if this is a one-guy IT shop, that's a scary prospect in a $1 Billion company; I'm sure it's not just one guy doing all levels, so clarify mentorship, etc.
July 28, 2012 at 11:22 pm
Shifting gears a bit, I took a job based on a single line adbertisement. The ad said "We're looking for someone who can figure out what's wrong with stored procedures just by looking at them an fix them." No fluff, no hype, no HR touchy-feely warm fuzzies. I walked in and said "I think I'm your man. How much are you paying?" The pay was good fair market value and I worked there for 4 years.
I told you that story so I could tell you this one. Good DBAs know what they're doing. You don't need a laundry list of a job description when it can all be boiled down to "We need a good Hybrid DBA that can do systems work and has a black-belt in T-SQL. Good bennies, good hours, good people, good pay."
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 30, 2012 at 9:10 am
Our friend linked us to pcrecruiter.com so I assume s/he's a recruiter. When I go to Melaleuca's own site and browse the current openings, the closest I found was this position.
They are calling it a SQL Developer, you're calling it a DBA and everyone else agrees the posting doesn't sound like you know what you want.
Their listing makes no mention of 24x7x365 which makes a huge difference for all the reasons the others stated.
I'm not going to beat the issues everyone else touched on into the ground. Sounds like you're looking for a Hybrid DBA. Someone who can administer your existing infrastructure and who can possibly write and analyze code. It's a pretty tall order and expecting someone to relocate to Idaho Falls may be a stretch. Put a realistic salary on there and offer work remotely and you might get a few more bites.
As far as the MLM stigma, sure it's there. I've worked for telemarketing companies in their hey-day doing sysadmin and DBA work. I was fresh out of college so the stigma didn't bother me much. I also didn't have to interact with anyone working in the call center so it kept me sane. You can probably find what you're looking for if you chisel down the requirements a bit and be a little more flexible.
July 30, 2012 at 9:15 am
Scott D. Jacobson (7/30/2012)
Our friend linked us to pcrecruiter.com so I assume s/he's a recruiter. When I go to Melaleuca's own site and browse the current openings, the closest I found was this position.They are calling it a SQL Developer, you're calling it a DBA and everyone else agrees the posting doesn't sound like you know what you want.
Their listing makes no mention of 24x7x365 which makes a huge difference for all the reasons the others stated.
I'm not going to beat the issues everyone else touched on into the ground. Sounds like you're looking for a Hybrid DBA. Someone who can administer your existing infrastructure and who can possibly write and analyze code. It's a pretty tall order and expecting someone to relocate to Idaho Falls may be a stretch. Put a realistic salary on there and offer work remotely and you might get a few more bites.
As far as the MLM stigma, sure it's there. I've worked for telemarketing companies in their hey-day doing sysadmin and DBA work. I was fresh out of college so the stigma didn't bother me much. I also didn't have to interact with anyone working in the call center so it kept me sane. You can probably find what you're looking for if you chisel down the requirements a bit and be a little more flexible.
I checked the site and see both the developer and DBA positions listed. I just did a search of all openings and found both positions on page 2.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
July 30, 2012 at 9:36 am
Good call Jason. I was just skimming and stopped when I saw the developer position. They do sound very similar though no?
July 30, 2012 at 9:41 am
Yes they do. The DBA position encompasses the developer requirements it appears.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
July 30, 2012 at 3:34 pm
Jeff Moden (7/28/2012)
In particular, if a person submitted a resume with obvious duplication, questionable use of language, and a couple of other things that you have in your job description, would you hire them or think that they're not paying attention to something very important?
Just like a resume, your company just hasn't put its best foot forward to attract qualified candidates. ...
+1
Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 77 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply