July 30, 2015 at 7:02 am
GeorgeCopeland (7/29/2015)
Southerners are frequently criticized for their pronunciation, I never understood why northerners get a free pass. New Yawk!
I was born and raised in Oklahoma...in the Bible belt south where Southern Baptist is a way of life for 2/3 of the people.
I don't speak with a "drawl" because I was raised by parents who believed in teaching me to enunciate and speak clearly in a non-inflected manner. Plus, I guess it helped that my mother was from Texas and my father from Iowa and I got to hear different accents to know difference to draw from.
So...not everyone from the south speaks with a "twang" lol 😛
July 30, 2015 at 7:22 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/29/2015)
jckfla (7/29/2015)
Personally, I think requiring or expecting an employee to engage socially outside of the workplace at all as a part of employment is a bit...stepford.Given, requiring an employee to become buddies/friends/pals/mates/co-dependent on their fellow co-workers and expecting them to "get along" are two very different things.
I'm not sure you're looking at this openly, but rather as an either or. I think you shouldn't be expected to engage socially all the time, or even a lot, but I'm not sure you fit the culture if you *never* do either. Like many things, it's a balance. We are social creatures.
I'm not advocating friends. I'm advocating some level of respect and working towards a common goal, regardless of differences.
Then you're advocating professionalism and being a "team"...not social interaction.
I am looking at it very openly. I just think your and my idea of "social" is different.
It's just that my last employer pushed VERY hard for employees to constantly give up weekends to do "for the company". This in addition to having to carry a cell phone that signalled alerts 24/7 when a router went down, drive had a single read error, a script ran slow, et al., just seemed a bit much to expect your IT people to all be on 24/7/365, plus volunteer your off-time on weekends "for the company", plus do your job 40-50 hours per week.
When you expect me to sacrifice that much of my life, work around people constantly, and be around co-workers about every 3-5 weeks on weekends too...when do I have time to socialize with my family...my friends I already have...my neighbors...my former co-workers?
I did socialize occasionally outside of the workplace a few times on a corporate and department level both. Like I said, I got along with everyone in my department incredibly well save the two people I mentioned previously (I think). I got along well with people from the rest of the company, including the owners and management.
I just think it's wrong for an employer to expect or demand social participation for which you don't wish to participate and/or they aren't willing to compensate your for your time in your off hours. And even more important, employees shouldn't be looked down upon for not participating.
I just see fitting in and getting along with co-workers (on your and their own terms)...and socializing (spending even off-hours) frequently with co-workers as a "part of the job" as the company trying to make you fit rather than letting you fit into the culture for who you are...as two very very different things.
Basically: fitting into the culture vs being coerced/forced into the culture
July 30, 2015 at 7:56 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/29/2015)
GoofyGuy (7/29/2015)
... under no circumstances can [the US Constitution] be ignored or interpreted by the Executive branch, a State, or a branch of government like the Justice Department, Department of Defense, or the NSA.
Actually, it gets ignored and interpreted all the time by all those governmental entitiies, by corporate entities, and by individuals as well.
That's why we have lawsuits and (ahem) lawyers.
I think based on the 3 major branches of the government, the judicial branch chiefly engages in the interpretation of the constitution, the legislative can initiate the process of change, so that leaves the ignoring part for the branch that's left over!
The primary role of a US president is (literally) to act as Chief Executive Officer over all the various federal agencies. The DOD, FDA, NSA, CIA, Homeland Security, Justice Department... they all report to the office of the president. Giving press interviews, and flying around on Airforce One to deliver speeches or meet with foreign dignataries does fall within the scope of the job, but isn't the primary responsibility.
However, looking at the terms of both Bush and Obama one can easily forget that. One would be left with the impression that these agencies operate independently and not only do they not answer to the president, but he doesn't even have a clue what they're doing.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
July 30, 2015 at 10:30 am
Is fitting into the culture a must have for a employee? Yes, I would agree 100%.
I say that because like others have mentioned, culture is much more than just activities outside the work place. Culture is very much the environment, attitude, work ethic and so much more that every employee needs to cultivate, promote and most importantly, enjoy.
A good culture leads to happy workers. I compare it to a good community. If you're happy with your house, your neighbors, the town and the schools, then you are more than likely a happy camper.
Happy workers = good work.
Unfortunately, some companies go overboard with forcing their culture in a direction that's a turnoff. I almost feel that management has to give some direction, but let the culture grow naturally. Not forced where they are going out there way to arrange an 80's college frat-style party and shun people who don't do keg stands or whatever. :hehe:
July 30, 2015 at 12:19 pm
David.Poole (7/29/2015)
My brother in law had two short books on his shelf. One was about your CV &the other about interviews . The interview book said that all questions are really asking 3 meta questions.1. Can they do the job
2. Will they do the job
3. Will they fit in
Just about perfect. After 35 years in technical fields (military, engineering, and finally IT), I've seen highly effective and highly INeffective organizations. Been tasked with turning the latter into the former. Seen the former turned INTO the latter by the wrong leadership. As I mentor the managers in my organization, I've passed on some of my own observations.
1. Any competent technical organization respects competence before anything else. I've heard "grudging respect" many times -- "S/he's an SOB, but at least s/he's a competent SOB." So while being competent to do the job hired for is ideally not the sole desirable trait, it's the first decider. Nobody likes deadweight.
2. I don't need super-nice people who agree all the time. I value civilized disagreement, the more options presented, the wider the choices. Having disparate points of view is great.
3. When managing people, I can and do manage to behavioral standards as well as technical competence. I have noticed that some highly-motivated and highly-intelligent people are SOBs. So I make clear to them my expectations and subsequently rate based on "what" and "how." The how is not what they feel, or if they socialize with other team members after work. It's how they contribute to a productive, peaceful and professional workplace. That's the only "culture" I care about when doing my job.
Oh, and arguing politics and religion -- for reasons evidenced in this forum itself -- are off limits during duty hours. If they want to socialize after work, or during lunch, away from the office, and fight (or bobblehead -- when everyone agrees with everyone else) at the local watering hole, more power to them. But when they are on the job, they are required to get along. And the intelligent among them know that the easiest way to do that is to set any contentious, non-work opinions aside and concentrate on what you're getting paid to do.
And if they don't, theyll soon find out they're not the only one who can be an SOB. 😛
July 30, 2015 at 12:19 pm
xsevensinzx (7/30/2015)
Is fitting into the culture a must have for a employee? Yes, I would agree 100%.I say that because like others have mentioned, culture is much more than just activities outside the work place. Culture is very much the environment, attitude, work ethic and so much more that every employee needs to cultivate, promote and most importantly, enjoy.
A good culture leads to happy workers. I compare it to a good community. If you're happy with your house, your neighbors, the town and the schools, then you are more than likely a happy camper.
Happy workers = good work.
Unfortunately, some companies go overboard with forcing their culture in a direction that's a turnoff. I almost feel that management has to give some direction, but let the culture grow naturally. Not forced where they are going out there way to arrange an 80's college frat-style party and shun people who don't do keg stands or whatever. :hehe:
Agreed. Especially when the culture is something other than what you asked about and how it was answered to you.
My ex-boss told me they were a "pretty laid back department". In ways, they were professionally too laid back. And in other ways, not laid back at all. He, of course, was the antithesis of laid back...hence as I said, one of the other programmers called him Darth Rager...and even had a ringtone from Star Wars on his phone for when he got calls/texts from him.
No matter where I've gone, I've gotten along well with just about everyone. Where I'm at now, everyone is great. There's no crunch, the big boss believes in planning well and organizing to make things very efficient. My director is laid back, helpful, sensible, and knows his stuff technically. Work therefore has ample time to be done and done right. I fit really well here, and hope to stay here a long, long while.
But, an employee having to fit a culture I don't think is a 100% thing. 90-95% maybe. But, that's given that both the employee and the employer don't have silly or radical cultural ideologies of how to be a professional in your trade.
July 30, 2015 at 6:23 pm
Yes, and you only let "your" people in. "Culture fit" is a synonym for bias.
July 31, 2015 at 9:07 am
Jim Zielinski (7/30/2015)
David.Poole (7/29/2015)
My brother in law had two short books on his shelf. One was about your CV &the other about interviews . The interview book said that all questions are really asking 3 meta questions.1. Can they do the job
2. Will they do the job
3. Will they fit in
Just about perfect. After 35 years in technical fields (military, engineering, and finally IT), I've seen highly effective and highly INeffective organizations. Been tasked with turning the latter into the former. Seen the former turned INTO the latter by the wrong leadership. As I mentor the managers in my organization, I've passed on some of my own observations.
1. Any competent technical organization respects competence before anything else. I've heard "grudging respect" many times -- "S/he's an SOB, but at least s/he's a competent SOB." So while being competent to do the job hired for is ideally not the sole desirable trait, it's the first decider. Nobody likes deadweight.
2. I don't need super-nice people who agree all the time. I value civilized disagreement, the more options presented, the wider the choices. Having disparate points of view is great.
3. When managing people, I can and do manage to behavioral standards as well as technical competence. I have noticed that some highly-motivated and highly-intelligent people are SOBs. So I make clear to them my expectations and subsequently rate based on "what" and "how." The how is not what they feel, or if they socialize with other team members after work. It's how they contribute to a productive, peaceful and professional workplace. That's the only "culture" I care about when doing my job.
Oh, and arguing politics and religion -- for reasons evidenced in this forum itself -- are off limits during duty hours. If they want to socialize after work, or during lunch, away from the office, and fight (or bobblehead -- when everyone agrees with everyone else) at the local watering hole, more power to them. But when they are on the job, they are required to get along. And the intelligent among them know that the easiest way to do that is to set any contentious, non-work opinions aside and concentrate on what you're getting paid to do.
And if they don't, theyll soon find out they're not the only one who can be an SOB. 😛
Actually, regarding politics on this thread, it has been fairly tame with no really flaming or gross name calling. I have seen worse, and some times it was NOT because we were talking politics (any one reading this thread remember the Banker Rounding threads (yes, we actually had two threads on this topic)).
I have no problem talking politics or religion on the forums or at work as long as it is done in a professional manner. I know that is hard for some, but then that's when you walk away from the conversation.
July 31, 2015 at 9:23 am
brett.robson 18562 (7/30/2015)
Yes, and you only let "your" people in. "Culture fit" is a synonym for bias.
Is bias inherently a bad thing?
July 31, 2015 at 9:29 am
ZZartin (7/31/2015)
brett.robson 18562 (7/30/2015)
Yes, and you only let "your" people in. "Culture fit" is a synonym for bias.Is bias inherently a bad thing?
Depends. If done to suppress different ideas, then yes.
July 31, 2015 at 10:23 am
Don't think like a Man or a Woman.
Don't think like an American or an Asian.
When you walk through the door at work, think like an Professional.
Professionalism is what solves problems and innovates solutions. Professionalism is what you get paid for. In the long run, no one is going to keep you on their payroll or turn to you for advice on the basis of you being anything else.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
July 31, 2015 at 1:28 pm
Eric M Russell (7/31/2015)
Don't think like a Man or a Woman.Don't think like an American or an Asian.
When you walk through the door at work, think like an Professional.
Professionalism is what solves problems and innovates solutions. Professionalism is what you get paid for. In the long run, no one is going to keep you on their payroll or turn to you for advice on the basis of you being anything else.
*whistles and beeps like R2D2* :laugh:
When I walk through the door, I get my work done and do it right. And, I'm not really professional though. I talk with boss about travel. I talk with another about drinking booze. I talk with another about projects for her childrens' schools.
It's not when I walk through the door that I put on the "professionalism" hat. It's when I sit down, open studio and ssms, look at the work to be done, and focus on making it meet the specifications lined out by staff...and make the bosses happy.
Then when that's done, I continue thinking about booze and travel and getting on Steam that night :laugh:
March 14, 2016 at 7:58 am
What a thread!!!
I was only going to say that I measure colleagues by two measures:
It is rare for me to give yes for both but unless it is no for both then usually there is a way to work together. Even two nos can be workable.
Apart from that, everyone is so diverse it is difficult to see how to judge people about fit until they are in.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
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