May 31, 2016 at 6:55 am
Great developer is a bit vague. Fast? Accurate? Into arcane algorithmics? How about dependable? works with others? not ego driven?
There are great musicians that are impossible to work with, others are easy to work with. Which is better in the long run?
Many developer jobs simply do not require a superstar to pull off wild tricks, rather reliable individuals who are methodical and accurate.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
May 31, 2016 at 7:00 am
That's why you always have an open position available for a great developer. If one is available, and they rarely are, you hire them if they want to work for you.
Great developers have to be paired with great projects, great leaders, and coworkers who appreciate greatness, otherwise they actually be perceived as a misfit.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
May 31, 2016 at 8:46 am
manie (5/31/2016)
Please allow me to make one thing clear. My post was not to rant about the unfairness of the job market although I believe it might have sounded like that. I just wanted to ask the question: "Could unqualified developers be seen as great developers?". I am not bragging when I said that I have taught a few guys with degrees a thing or two.So, tell me what do you think, experience or qualification? Be honest.
Yes. Always. Putting together a good marketing plan/resume/CV and not having a good technical interview, and certainly I've seen developers that were unqualified or average presenting themselves, and being hired, as senior or top developers.
That's always a danger. The same thing happens to doctors, lawyers, and more. It happens in football and other sports. People become enamored with a person based on one thing, which may or may not be exactly what they need the person to actually do.
That being said, you should present yourself in the best light. However, I hope you continue to learn, refine your skills, improve them, admit mistakes, and grow.
May 31, 2016 at 1:44 pm
Experience trumps education
Achievements trumps Experience.
My heart sinks when I read "Responsible for". It doesn't say whether you were hands on, whether you achieved something or whether you just parcelled out the work.
May 31, 2016 at 9:20 pm
manie (5/31/2016)
I am telling you everywhere I went they ask for my qualifications and when I say I have none, they say sorry sir.
Did they even bother to interview you or did they cut you off before the interview?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 31, 2016 at 11:29 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/31/2016)
manie (5/31/2016)
Please allow me to make one thing clear. My post was not to rant about the unfairness of the job market although I believe it might have sounded like that. I just wanted to ask the question: "Could unqualified developers be seen as great developers?". I am not bragging when I said that I have taught a few guys with degrees a thing or two.So, tell me what do you think, experience or qualification? Be honest.
Yes. Always. Putting together a good marketing plan/resume/CV and not having a good technical interview, and certainly I've seen developers that were unqualified or average presenting themselves, and being hired, as senior or top developers.
That's always a danger. The same thing happens to doctors, lawyers, and more. It happens in football and other sports. People become enamored with a person based on one thing, which may or may not be exactly what they need the person to actually do.
That being said, you should present yourself in the best light. However, I hope you continue to learn, refine your skills, improve them, admit mistakes, and grow.
Thanks Steve, and I promise I have and always will try my best to improve myself even if I turn 90 and still have the strength to do it!!
Manie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I am happy because I choose to be happy.
I just love my job!!!
May 31, 2016 at 11:35 pm
Jeff Moden (5/31/2016)
manie (5/31/2016)
I am telling you everywhere I went they ask for my qualifications and when I say I have none, they say sorry sir.Did they even bother to interview you or did they cut you off before the interview?
I did actually have some interviews and some wanted to appoint me but management wanted to see education.
Manie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I am happy because I choose to be happy.
I just love my job!!!
June 1, 2016 at 11:27 am
manie (5/31/2016)
Jeff Moden (5/31/2016)
manie (5/31/2016)
I am telling you everywhere I went they ask for my qualifications and when I say I have none, they say sorry sir.Did they even bother to interview you or did they cut you off before the interview?
I did actually have some interviews and some wanted to appoint me but management wanted to see education.
These days with the majority of people going to university some employers have become qualification obsessed. When I was outo f work for over a year I applied for some project management jobs and yet despite having managed some large projects and references to support this everyone insisted on Prince II certification. Some people with Prince II certification I have worked with have been so bad they were certifiable! 🙂
June 2, 2016 at 7:22 am
These days with the majority of people going to university some employers have become qualification obsessed.
This is a major problem imo. In my country there are several employers that require a minimum education level even to be considered for a job. It's a sure way to miss out on some great talent.
June 2, 2016 at 8:40 am
Terje Hermanseter (6/2/2016)
These days with the majority of people going to university some employers have become qualification obsessed.
This is a major problem imo. In my country there are several employers that require a minimum education level even to be considered for a job. It's a sure way to miss out on some great talent.
+1
Some of the best developers I know didn't go to university.
June 2, 2016 at 9:04 am
mjh 45389 (6/1/2016)
manie (5/31/2016)
Jeff Moden (5/31/2016)
manie (5/31/2016)
I am telling you everywhere I went they ask for my qualifications and when I say I have none, they say sorry sir.Did they even bother to interview you or did they cut you off before the interview?
I did actually have some interviews and some wanted to appoint me but management wanted to see education.
These days with the majority of people going to university some employers have become qualification obsessed. When I was outo f work for over a year I applied for some project management jobs and yet despite having managed some large projects and references to support this everyone insisted on Prince II certification. Some people with Prince II certification I have worked with have been so bad they were certifiable! 🙂
Heh... I know exactly what you're talking about.
I've 4.0'd every college course I've ever taken including Calculus 1 and Calculus 2 (unfortunately, forgot most of it now). I've taught a 1,028 hour (8 hours per day every work day for six months) course that's the equivalent of a Masters Degree in electronics and wrote/taught a 200 hour (5 days a week, 8 hours a day, 5 weeks) course on microprocessors for the Navy. I've written so many 16 hour "mini_courses" for different computer applications I can't even count them all.
And even with that, they say you "must have a least a Bachelors Degree" to even get an interview.
The way I got around that was to list the 4.0 courses (which is all of them) as "educational highlights" on my resume and let them assume from there. And, assume they do.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 2, 2016 at 9:37 am
Terje Hermanseter (6/2/2016)
These days with the majority of people going to university some employers have become qualification obsessed.
This is a major problem imo. In my country there are several employers that require a minimum education level even to be considered for a job. It's a sure way to miss out on some great talent.
IT Darwinism is about competetion between corporations, where survival of the fittest is determined by who has the competitive edge in the area of information technology. If some employers want to enforce a restrictive hiring policy that excludes or discards some of the best IT talent, then that's their problem... not ours.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
June 2, 2016 at 11:04 am
There's a presentation that demonstrates that you may as well not bother with an IT degree because the pace of change is so fast that by year 4 what you learned in year 1 is obsolete.
For non-IT degrees all it proves is that you obtained a level of education whose subject is probably irrelevant to what your job entails. In the UK you will have a student loan debt that will take years to pay off for the privilege. Once you have had your 1st job and hung on to it then you are in a good position to move forward, particularly if you got promoted. Success breeds success.
The rush to reclassify polytechnics as universities and the huge increase in university places has somewhat devalued the degree currency.
I'm not keen on internships that don't pay enough to live on. Only the offspring of the wealthy can afford to take them so it becomes an means of exclusion. At the same time it allows companies to get work done at low or zero cost thereby devaluing the work. That path is a race to the bottom. What you get is polarised society with a block at the top and a mass at the bottom and sparseness in the middle.
June 2, 2016 at 11:49 am
David.Poole (6/2/2016)
There's a presentation that demonstrates that you may as well not bother with an IT degree because the pace of change is so fast that by year 4 what you learned in year 1 is obsolete.For non-IT degrees all it proves is that you obtained a level of education whose subject is probably irrelevant to what your job entails. In the UK you will have a student loan debt that will take years to pay off for the privilege. Once you have had your 1st job and hung on to it then you are in a good position to move forward, particularly if you got promoted. Success breeds success.
The rush to reclassify polytechnics as universities and the huge increase in university places has somewhat devalued the degree currency.
I'm not keen on internships that don't pay enough to live on. Only the offspring of the wealthy can afford to take them so it becomes an means of exclusion. At the same time it allows companies to get work done at low or zero cost thereby devaluing the work. That path is a race to the bottom. What you get is polarised society with a block at the top and a mass at the bottom and sparseness in the middle.
Yes, only a small percentage of IT jobs could be described as computer science or engineering. It's sort of like having a degree in literature or philosophy; one will probably end up working in an entirely different field and then blog about one's special academic interest on the side. For an IT postition that revolves around supporting business applications, it probably would be more beneficial to have an information systems oriented business degree, especially if one's goal is to one day move into management.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
June 3, 2016 at 12:19 am
Eric M Russell (6/2/2016)
David.Poole (6/2/2016)
There's a presentation that demonstrates that you may as well not bother with an IT degree because the pace of change is so fast that by year 4 what you learned in year 1 is obsolete.For non-IT degrees all it proves is that you obtained a level of education whose subject is probably irrelevant to what your job entails. In the UK you will have a student loan debt that will take years to pay off for the privilege. Once you have had your 1st job and hung on to it then you are in a good position to move forward, particularly if you got promoted. Success breeds success.
The rush to reclassify polytechnics as universities and the huge increase in university places has somewhat devalued the degree currency.
I'm not keen on internships that don't pay enough to live on. Only the offspring of the wealthy can afford to take them so it becomes an means of exclusion. At the same time it allows companies to get work done at low or zero cost thereby devaluing the work. That path is a race to the bottom. What you get is polarised society with a block at the top and a mass at the bottom and sparseness in the middle.
Yes, only a small percentage of IT jobs could be described as computer science or engineering. It's sort of like having a degree in literature or philosophy; one will probably end up working in an entirely different field and then blog about one's special academic interest on the side. For an IT postition that revolves around supporting business applications, it probably would be more beneficial to have an information systems oriented business degree, especially if one's goal is to one day move into management.
I know people who view degrees not as a way to get facts but a way of thinking. A history grad will think and tackle problems differently to math grad or as legal grad. Most IT graduates don't understand databases and will ask 'where is the for/next loop to update all these rows?' Not saying that the universities don't produce great developers but I think its a mindset that is encouraged to develop by others.
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