November 10, 2016 at 12:14 pm
I agree with the principle that everyone should learn some sort of symbolic logical language, but I'd recommend a logically enforceable visual language like BPMN instead of a text based computer language. BPMN can be used to model any process (and it's more suited to knowledge work than VSM, which was originally built for manufacturing).
I wish all our non-IT program managers, in fact darn near any employee, used it for documenting and managing their work on a day to day basis. For one thing, it would sure make requirements gathering easier for BI and and app development.
November 10, 2016 at 4:07 pm
I would rather people took a course in change management.
From this you should be able to draft up a problem statement that clearly states why it would be advantageous to make the change you are putting forward.
Then there is the rule of 2s for assembling a team to address the problem
Then there is mapping the process flow and the various techniques for doing this.
Let us not forget the part where you examine the process to see whether you are addressing a root cause or simply a symptom of the root cause.
If you can carry out the above in a structured way then you will be a good all-rounder whether you decide to become a programmer, project manager, consultant or simply better at prioritising your life.
November 10, 2016 at 5:13 pm
When I was in high school we had “electives” such as Typing, Accounting, Woodshop, Metal Shop, Electronics, Home Economics, among others I don’t remember.
I took Typing (old fashioned mechanicals) and the teacher was so hot - I took Typing II, and to this day I use what I learned.
I also took Accounting and learned that is NOT what I want to do with my life, but gained an understanding that helps me to this day.
I also took woodshop, metal shop, electronics, and home economics which I use all the time.
So yes they need to offer some form of computer literacy classes, and programing classes.
Don’t worry most of them are not going to take your job.
Being a computer professional is a calling, we don’t do it for the money – we do it because it’s fun.
We enjoy the puzzles, the bugs, and the never ending challenge.
PS: Money is nice
November 10, 2016 at 8:30 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (11/10/2016)
skeleton567 (11/10/2016)
Sure, and more people should drive 18-wheelers on the interstates. I think I'll go over the airport and volunteer to fly a load of folks to Chicago today, too.Having started to write code in 1969, I have seen lots of it, worked on my own and that of others, and verified the results of many, many lines of it. I'm now 73 years old, and still write my own code. I definitely am not up to date on all the new bells and whistles of the software, but I still can validate results produced.
Folks writing their own code can be very dangerous to companies that may end up depending on invalid results for important business decisions. A while before I retired I happened to need to do some revision on a set of 10 or 12 statistical reports for my employer. Getting into the code, I discovered that nearly all of the set of reports contained the same or similar errors causing them to produce invalid information.
And even more scary, since the organization allowed non-technical 'project managers' to control such things, and since these folks were often too timid to implement code changes, the fixes were never applied.
While it is true that code can be cobbled together so that it will RUN without failing, that in no way indicates that the data produced is VALID information.
This is silly and insulting. I'm not asking, nor are more people, for everyone to learn to be self sufficient, or even write code to support their (or others') jobs.
We do want many people to learn to drive. It's a valuable skill, and perhaps many people should get the chance to try to drive a small truck or small trailer, but no need for anyone to commercially deliver goods. That's for someone that chooses to be a professional.
Driving an 18 wheeler or flying a plane aren't things that most people do. That's highly specialized. However, most people do interact with computers, and do find a need to perform simple tasks. People import and export data, even something as simple as a contact list. They upgrade, they mail merge, they might macro something in Excel.
Getting more people to code is imparting a basic skill, even if they never use it.
While it is true that most people do 'interact with computers', your examples of importing/exporting data, upgrading, mail/merge, and Excel are not, I contend, writing code. These examples are actually making practical use of someone else's code, not writing their own. In all cases you mention, these people are in fact depending on the dependability and accuracy of code written by others. They typically have no clue regarding the code behind the UTILITIES they are using.
Get over it. Writing computer code is far more than a 'basic skill'. Driving is a basic skill that requires a drivers license. Driving that 18-wheeler takes MORE than a drivers license. Flying a plane requires a pilots license.
If you think this is silly or you are insulted by it, that's OK. I thank God that you don't write the code controlling our nuclear arsenal.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
November 10, 2016 at 8:53 pm
David.Poole (11/10/2016)
I would rather people took a course in change management.
- What is the problem I am trying to solve?
- How big is the problem?
- What impact does the problem have?
- Is the problem getting worse, getting better or unchanging?
From this you should be able to draft up a problem statement that clearly states why it would be advantageous to make the change you are putting forward.
Then there is the rule of 2s for assembling a team to address the problem
- Two people upstream of the process you are going to change
- Two people downstream of the process or thing you are going to change
- Two people who enact the process you are going to change
- Two people completely outside of the process
Then there is mapping the process flow and the various techniques for doing this.
Let us not forget the part where you examine the process to see whether you are addressing a root cause or simply a symptom of the root cause.
If you can carry out the above in a structured way then you will be a good all-rounder whether you decide to become a programmer, project manager, consultant or simply better at prioritising your life.
You had my interest until you got to the rule of 2's. From there on you illustrate exactly the problem in business today. I don't want your all-rounder writing code for my use. These are drastically differing skills and are all appropriate for many projects, but most of these folks have no business creating computer code.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
November 10, 2016 at 9:03 pm
This entire discussion takes me back to the days before many of you were even born, the days when COBOL (for you young sprouts that was Common Business Oriented Language). The concept was that this language would allow everyone to create code that would manipulate data and present information. What we discovered was that it allowed non-technical, untrained or undertrained people to create absolute nightmares of code while having absolutely no understanding of what was actually happening.
This idea of everyone creating computer code is built on the same failing concepts of socialism. It sounds like a great idea to live in a world where everyone is equal. Just doesn't work because everyone is definitely NOT equal.
Having a black president was also thought to be a good idea. Not saying it wasn't, just that we didn't have the right one.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
November 10, 2016 at 11:04 pm
Steve, I am sorry to say but I told you so in my (the) first post here. Some people are just plain rude and insulting. I, however, get your point. Before I became a developer I was working for the South African Railways (which changed name a couple of times) as a stock controller and the system we worked on was SAP. I always tried to make my work easier and would export data from the system to Excel. This was normally done when we did stock takes and I always wished I knew more to write a very basic little program to make it easier.
I met some people that knew a bit and with their help I could program a little Access database with forms and report and then import my data in there.
Now let me tell you this was very basic but it helped me to perform tasks quicker. We don't want people to program space rockets, just a very basic knowledge of programming.
Manie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I am happy because I choose to be happy.
I just love my job!!!
November 11, 2016 at 12:25 am
skeleton567 (11/10/2016)
David.Poole (11/10/2016)
I would rather people took a course in change management.
- What is the problem I am trying to solve?
- How big is the problem?
- What impact does the problem have?
- Is the problem getting worse, getting better or unchanging?
From this you should be able to draft up a problem statement that clearly states why it would be advantageous to make the change you are putting forward.
Then there is the rule of 2s for assembling a team to address the problem
- Two people upstream of the process you are going to change
- Two people downstream of the process or thing you are going to change
- Two people who enact the process you are going to change
- Two people completely outside of the process
Then there is mapping the process flow and the various techniques for doing this.
Let us not forget the part where you examine the process to see whether you are addressing a root cause or simply a symptom of the root cause.
If you can carry out the above in a structured way then you will be a good all-rounder whether you decide to become a programmer, project manager, consultant or simply better at prioritising your life.
You had my interest until you got to the rule of 2's. From there on you illustrate exactly the problem in business today. I don't want your all-rounder writing code for my use. These are drastically differing skills and are all appropriate for many projects, but most of these folks have no business creating computer code.
Perhaps all rounder is the wrong phrase. I was thinking more of someone who sees the bigger picture, appreciates that they have an impact beyond their immediate boundary.
Because I have worked with data my whole life I know it has to flow around the organisation. I have to think of the bigger picture when making choices about data.
One of my ongoing frustrations is those solutions that focus to the exclusion of all else on the needs of a minority when the data is needed by the majority.
November 11, 2016 at 7:58 am
manie (11/10/2016)
Steve, I am sorry to say but I told you so in my (the) first post here. Some people are just plain rude and insulting. I, however, get your point. Before I became a developer I was working for the South African Railways (which changed name a couple of times) as a stock controller and the system we worked on was SAP. I always tried to make my work easier and would export data from the system to Excel. This was normally done when we did stock takes and I always wished I knew more to write a very basic little program to make it easier.I met some people that knew a bit and with their help I could program a little Access database with forms and report and then import my data in there.
Now let me tell you this was very basic but it helped me to perform tasks quicker. We don't want people to program space rockets, just a very basic knowledge of programming.
Manie, maybe you see me as rude and insulting, and that is OK. I'm also a realist. I'm happy for you that you were able to get your start and become a contented developer. I think key to this whole conversation is embodied in your own comment is 'became' a developer. The process is truly developing a skill and becoming. It's not for everyone, and my contention is that everyone is not cut out for this skill. Throughout my 42 year IT career I had to deal at times with folks who could 'write code' but definitely were not technically qualified. And I did see a number of them fall by the wayside. My concern was for what they left behind that tends to persist.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
November 11, 2016 at 8:19 am
skeleton567 (11/11/2016)
manie (11/10/2016)
Steve, I am sorry to say but I told you so in my (the) first post here. Some people are just plain rude and insulting. I, however, get your point. Before I became a developer I was working for the South African Railways (which changed name a couple of times) as a stock controller and the system we worked on was SAP. I always tried to make my work easier and would export data from the system to Excel. This was normally done when we did stock takes and I always wished I knew more to write a very basic little program to make it easier.I met some people that knew a bit and with their help I could program a little Access database with forms and report and then import my data in there.
Now let me tell you this was very basic but it helped me to perform tasks quicker. We don't want people to program space rockets, just a very basic knowledge of programming.
Manie, maybe you see me as rude and insulting, and that is OK. I'm also a realist. I'm happy for you that you were able to get your start and become a contented developer. I think key to this whole conversation is embodied in your own comment is 'became' a developer. The process is truly developing a skill and becoming. It's not for everyone, and my contention is that everyone is not cut out for this skill. Throughout my 42 year IT career I had to deal at times with folks who could 'write code' but definitely were not technically qualified. And I did see a number of them fall by the wayside. My concern was for what they left behind that tends to persist.
I could give hundreds of examples of people who were "programmers" but were too stupid to code. I could give hundreds of examples of people who were smart enough, but still didn't have sufficient logic skills to code correctly. The first case is people who weren't able to write code because they didn't understand how to formulate a command. The second is people who could formulate the command, but couldn't do so in a way to make it do what they thought it would do.
One of my favorite related examples is a couple of "teachers" who were in my discrete math class, who argued that since they were going to be teachers they did not need to understand or use logic. Can we really expect kids to learn to code when so many teachers in our country don't even understand basic logic, and why it is important to all of us?
Face it, most people will never be able to code. Most people can't even learn to use Excel. I work with highly educated people who can't even figure out how to login to a computer. To the point that some have made, yes you can introduce a lot of people to coding, but that does not mean they can code, and I seriously doubt it means they will better understand us. I think it has the opposite effect.
Dave
November 11, 2016 at 8:22 am
Despite working in IT as both a software developer and database administrator, I'm not a big fan of consumer gadgets or other technology that involves a lot of user interactivity. The best technology applications are the kind that sit in the background, quietly and invisibly doing it's job day after day, thus freeing people to be themselves and do natural human stuff like eat dinner with the family or enjoy the outdoors. If we have program a refrigerator or toilet, then I consider that an epic fail.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
November 11, 2016 at 8:46 am
Programmable toilet? That gives a whole new connotation to stack dump
November 11, 2016 at 8:50 am
Eric M Russell (11/11/2016)
Despite working in IT as both a software developer and database administrator, I'm not a big fan of consumer gadgets or other technology that involves a lot of user interactivity. The best technology applications are the kind that sit in the background, quietly and invisibly doing it's job day after day, thus freeing people to be themselves and do natural human stuff like eat dinner with the family or enjoy the outdoors. If we have program a refrigerator or toilet, then I consider that an epic fail.
Eric, you are right on the point with your comments on technology as applied to consumer gadgets. They do indeed tend to give the impression that the whole area of information technology is a phenomenon for the 'average joe'. Just because someone 'masters' the use of an cell phone or laptop for browsing the internet does not indicate that they are or ever will be competent at creating software. I think that code creation is a skill that requires the critical combination of both art and science.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
November 11, 2016 at 11:49 am
From what I can see every profession has it's craftsmen but also its journey men.
There are those who can just get by in a profession, those who can execute competently and those who are born to it.
One trap for the unwary is in assuming that because you've never met the latter is that the whole profesdion is somehow a lesser profession.
November 11, 2016 at 12:06 pm
skeleton567 (11/11/2016)
Eric M Russell (11/11/2016)
Despite working in IT as both a software developer and database administrator, I'm not a big fan of consumer gadgets or other technology that involves a lot of user interactivity. The best technology applications are the kind that sit in the background, quietly and invisibly doing it's job day after day, thus freeing people to be themselves and do natural human stuff like eat dinner with the family or enjoy the outdoors. If we have program a refrigerator or toilet, then I consider that an epic fail.Eric, you are right on the point with your comments on technology as applied to consumer gadgets. They do indeed tend to give the impression that the whole area of information technology is a phenomenon for the 'average joe'. Just because someone 'masters' the use of an cell phone or laptop for browsing the internet does not indicate that they are or ever will be competent at creating software. I think that code creation is a skill that requires the critical combination of both art and science.
My belief is that IoT (at least at the consumer product level), Big Data (with the exception of big science applications like weather and genetics), and Social Media (with the exception of topical sites like SQLServerCentral) are for the most part passing fads.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
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