Future Career Suggestion Request
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Jeff Moden (7/8/2012)
Jeez Gail, calm down! I NEVER said that MCM is "useless".You didn't?
The recommendation sucked so bad that it immediately discredited the MCM cert in my eyes to the same low level that I hold the other certs and degrees in general...
Now I (and anyone else who reads your comments) know that the level you hold other certs at is 'completely useless', so....
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverabilityWe walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass -
Robert Davis (7/8/2012)
Jeff, are you sure that person was an MCM? After all, you already made that mistake once in this thread. What was the bad advice given by the MCM?Edit: Gail is right about specialties; however, one of the base principles of being an MCM is to "know what you know, know what you don't know, and never confuse the two." An MCM isn't going to know absolutely everything, but they should know enough not to advise people on things they don't know.
Heh... you, too, have stated exactly what I've stated. "An MCM isn't going to know absolutely everything". THAT was my only point.
And, yes... unless he used a "sacred" JPG illegally, he had included the following graphic as part of his signature line which is a pretty damned good indication that he is, in fact, an MCM.
The only reason why I'm not providing a link to the post is because I have a very strong respect for what MCMs have gone through to earn the right to post that graphic. Again, my ONLY point is that just like the Phd in Mathematics I cited the problem for, MCMs don't know everything and people need to understand that just because they have an MCM, they're not going to know everything.
I respect the person, not the badge.
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
GilaMonster (7/8/2012)
Jeff Moden (7/8/2012)
Jeez Gail, calm down! I NEVER said that MCM is "useless".You didn't?
The recommendation sucked so bad that it immediately discredited the MCM cert in my eyes to the same low level that I hold the other certs and degrees in general...
Now I (and anyone else who reads your comments) know that the level you hold other certs at is 'completely useless', so....
It's only "useless" to get the interview, Gail. Unless I have prior knowledge of the actual work by an individual, I don't even consider such things as alphabet soup after their name and I treat everyone the same during the interview. If the MCM cert isn't "useless" to that person, then they will have no problems during the interview. If they can't make it through the interview, then it was, in fact, useless to them and to me.
I suspect that you're personally a little touchy on the subject because you recently got your MCM. My hat is off to you for that. It won't be useless to you because, unlike the people that had alphabet soup after their name during many interviews, I'll just bet you'd rock in any interview by anyone. As with any pedigree, not every one that has an MCM will be able to do that.
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
Jeff Moden (7/8/2012)
GilaMonster (7/8/2012)
Jeff Moden (7/8/2012)
Jeez Gail, calm down! I NEVER said that MCM is "useless".You didn't?
The recommendation sucked so bad that it immediately discredited the MCM cert in my eyes to the same low level that I hold the other certs and degrees in general...
Now I (and anyone else who reads your comments) know that the level you hold other certs at is 'completely useless', so....
It's only "useless" during the interview, Gail.
You've said many times before that you feel certifications are useless, not just in interviews and disregarding certs in interviews is not the same as discrediting them.
I suspect that you're personally a little touchy on the subject because you recently got your MCM.
No, I'm touchy because your post implied (and could easily be literally read as) that you found one person who wasn't up to your high standard and solely from that fact discredited a qualification that person held. Could have been any qualification, I'd have been just as touchy about it, and I'd have been just as touchy about this if it had happened 6 months ago/
I hate generalisations, I hate massive conclusions drawn from small numbers of incidents.
Please remember a lot of readers will hold your opinion up as one worth adopting and following. You say that you've discredited some qualification based on some incident, others are going to doubt it as well.
Now the later clarifications 'no one knows everything', yes, that I agree with and no one's ever claimed that MCM = knows everything. But that's not what you initially said.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverabilityWe walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass -
Jeff Moden (7/8/2012)
Robert Davis (7/8/2012)
Heh... you, too, have stated exactly what I've stated. "An MCM isn't going to know absolutely everything". THAT was my only point.On that point we absolutely agree. The piece I was adding is that an MCM SHOULD know better than to give advice if they don't know what they are talking about.
My blog: SQL Soldier[/url]
SQL Server Best Practices: SQL Server Best Practices
Twitter: @SQLSoldier
My book: Pro SQL Server 2008 Mirroring[/url]
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, Data Platform MVP
Database Engineer at BlueMountain Capital Management[/url] -
The difference with Paul and Denny is that even if they do give performance advice, they preface or append it with the very disclaimers you cited. That's the person speaking, not the badge of MCM. Having the MCM didn't make them make the disclaimers. The person with the MCM that I'm talking about made no such disclaimer. Again, the MCM didn't force that person to.
Would you rather that I said "I agree. Anyone with that, I guarantee, they know what they're talking about?" I don't believe that would sit well with you either because, just like me, you've seen people with certs and degrees that you wonder how they earned the title. Having an MCM is a marvelous testimony to the rigors of earning it but, like any other pedigree, the proof is in the individual and not the pedigree. You, Paul, Denny, and a several other people that I have a deep respect for are all what I would consider to be "MCM material"… and I'd have that deep respect whether or not any of you had an MCM or not. Not everyone that has an MCM will fall into that category anymore than someone having a Phd would. Nor will they necessarily have the knowledge to tune a query.
While you're correct that I only have one such example specifically concerning the MCM cert, it falls into the exact same pattern that I've seen so many other times that so many other certs and degrees fall into. And that's the "discredit" and "low level" that I hold for all such certs and degrees. Don't trust the alphabet soup. Trust the person and until that person earns that trust, look past the alphabet soup.
To wit, if you received two resumes for a job from two people who otherwise seemed equally qualified for the job and only one of them had MCM as a verifiable qualification (and you didn't know either one of them, of course), would you interview only the one with the MCM? If so, then I'm disappointed.
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
Robert Davis (7/8/2012)
Jeff Moden (7/8/2012)
Robert Davis (7/8/2012)
Heh... you, too, have stated exactly what I've stated. "An MCM isn't going to know absolutely everything". THAT was my only point.On that point we absolutely agree. The piece I was adding is that an MCM SHOULD know better than to give advice if they don't know what they are talking about.
EXACTLY! Thank you, Robert!
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)
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