September 20, 2011 at 7:55 pm
Lon-860191 (9/20/2011)
Maybe, it just that students are doing what they have learned from big business; when you want something done, outsource or subcontract the work to be done. They are just starting at the game earlier then we would like.
Then they need to find out the penalties for doing so earlier. Like I said earlier... no excuses.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
September 21, 2011 at 7:27 am
WayneS (9/20/2011)
Lon-860191 (9/20/2011)
Maybe, it just that students are doing what they have learned from big business; when you want something done, outsource or subcontract the work to be done. They are just starting at the game earlier then we would like.Then they need to find out the penalties for doing so earlier. Like I said earlier... no excuses.
People who cheat their way through university don't deserve the education. There are a lot of marginal folks out there who borrow $$$,$$$ at tax payer expense, go to university, learn nothing, and later go on to contribute nothing worthwhile to society.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
September 21, 2011 at 8:18 am
I agree on the overall discussion about plagiarism ... but completely disagree about hiring someone to do your work. That's called SUBCONTRACTING, done all of the time and is a necessary tool/service. If only everyone (including myself!) used it correctly. I've been a developer since 1986 and from 2002-2007 I was effectively a freelance developer/consultant. I had a large client and a few smaller ones (very small business, obviously) but had several ideas on growing my business. I just never had the time to work on my own projects!! I thought about subcontracting my work for others out but that didn't always go over well with my clients, who felt they hired ME for my knowledge and abilities. I thought about subcontracting my own work but never got around to it. Now that I'm re-opening my busines (only to develop and market my own software) I definitiely WILL subcontract ... especially when I'm either under a time crunch or need to tackle a specific problem I can't solve on my own.
As for doing someone elses homework and getting paid for it, why not? It is only the person that requested the service that is losing. If I was paying for an education and had a homework assignment I certainly wouldn't ask anyone else to do it .. otherwise I'd learn nothing! Maybe they just want a working sample they can study? What developer hasn't needed something like that at some point in their career?
September 21, 2011 at 5:33 pm
brad.ashforth (9/21/2011)... As for doing someone elses homework and getting paid for it, why not? It is only the person that requested the service that is losing. ....
[rant] No it's not. That person eventually gets his diploma/degree based on someone else's competency, not his/her own. Employers rely (in part) on those diplomas and degrees to assess that person's competency. So they waste their time, effort and money in hiring this person who than turns out to be incompetent, has to be fired (hopefully the incompetency is discovered during the trial period, otherwise the costs are racking up even further). Then more time and money needs to be spent on the next recruit for the position. For the employer to mitigate risks of recruiting another misfit they have to do their own assessments/tests besides trusting the diplomas/degrees. Equals more time, effort and money.
As a small-business individual (not having plenty of time and money for those extra assessments/tests) I just can't express enough my disgust for these lowlifes that think they have "something better to do" than being educated and EARN the diploma/degree. And that ALSO goes to those that WILLINGLY "help out" these misfits.[/rant]
September 21, 2011 at 5:51 pm
mar10br0 (9/21/2011)
brad.ashforth (9/21/2011)... As for doing someone elses homework and getting paid for it, why not? It is only the person that requested the service that is losing. ....
[rant] No it's not. ... I just can't express enough my disgust for these lowlifes that think they have "something better to do" than being educated and EARN the diploma/degree. And that ALSO goes to those that WILLINGLY "help out" these misfits.[/rant]
Seconded! :sick:
September 21, 2011 at 6:03 pm
Marlboro, while I agree in theory, it's not just the work that is causing the failure, it's the poor testing methods that the university who handed out the degree has used.
All coursework should be aimed towards a single event, the usage of that in a real scenario. Think of it this way. In the Air Force, once you've studied all your controls, they don't give you a paper test, they shove your arse in a simulator and make you DO it. Then they stick you in a real plane and you do it again if you can get through the simulator.
Do I abhore plagarism? Yes, I do. Do your own work and don't take credit for mine. However, the fault is not entirely with the student if the people who are handing these people official certifications (aka: A Degree) of knowing the subject can't adequately test them to prove it.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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September 22, 2011 at 3:00 am
brad.ashforth (9/21/2011)
I agree on the overall discussion about plagiarism ... but completely disagree about hiring someone to do your work. That's called SUBCONTRACTING, done all of the time and is a necessary tool/service. If only everyone (including myself!) used it correctly. I've been a developer since 1986 and from 2002-2007 I was effectively a freelance developer/consultant. I had a large client and a few smaller ones (very small business, obviously) but had several ideas on growing my business. I just never had the time to work on my own projects!! I thought about subcontracting my work for others out but that didn't always go over well with my clients, who felt they hired ME for my knowledge and abilities. I thought about subcontracting my own work but never got around to it. Now that I'm re-opening my busines (only to develop and market my own software) I definitiely WILL subcontract ... especially when I'm either under a time crunch or need to tackle a specific problem I can't solve on my own.As for doing someone elses homework and getting paid for it, why not? It is only the person that requested the service that is losing. If I was paying for an education and had a homework assignment I certainly wouldn't ask anyone else to do it .. otherwise I'd learn nothing! Maybe they just want a working sample they can study? What developer hasn't needed something like that at some point in their career?
Subcontracting is fine - indeed often preferred - subject to two conditions. Firstly, all parties must be aware of the subcontracting; the "customer" at that point not just trusting you, but also anyone you trust, and that may be a leap of faith too far. Secondly, by subcontracting you're delegating effort, but you can't also delegate responsibility; if one of your subcontractors gets something wrong, you're still going to (and should) carry the can.
If I wished to "subcontract" my homework, and the two conditions above were followed, I suspect the university would veto the idea; cheating is (as has been pointed out several times in this thread) not a victimless crime.
Attempting to provide a "homework subcontracting" service for profit isn't victimless either. Simply by offering the service, you're providing temptation to the weak willed, but if it's your business aren't you going to advertise? If you do, you're actively encouraging dishonesty.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
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