September 20, 2011 at 6:55 am
It is kind of scary how this type on unethical behavior is becoming more prevalent. For some reason, the stigma of cheating has lost the sting it once had. This attitude of "I deserve this, but I don't actually want to work for it" is not just happening in school.
I also taught myself to write programs, and actually sold them. Doesn't mean that when I went back to school to get my computer science degree that I decided I was above doing the mundane assignments given to me by my professors. Funny thing, the programming I do at work isn't always exciting either. That doesn't stop me from doing it.
September 20, 2011 at 7:17 am
This line in the article struck me:
It's just plain wrong to hire someone to do your work,
In the context of coursework this is true because the point of coursework isn't to get the work done but to learn from doing the work.
However, in general, this is not true. If it was, none of us would have jobs. Our lives and world are filled with hiring other people to do work that we want to have done but don't want to do. Such is the benefit of specialization.
There is certainly some dissonance in course work due to the "I have better things to do" mentality and hiring someone to do the low priority stuff certainly has some appeal.
--
JimFive
Disclaimer: I did all of my own work in college and consider it dishonorable to cheat at anything. However, I can see the other point of view.
September 20, 2011 at 8:54 am
James Goodwin (9/20/2011)
This line in the article struck me:It's just plain wrong to hire someone to do your work,
In the context of coursework this is true because the point of coursework isn't to get the work done but to learn from doing the work.
However, in general, this is not true. If it was, none of us would have jobs. Our lives and world are filled with hiring other people to do work that we want to have done but don't want to do. Such is the benefit of specialization.
There is certainly some dissonance in course work due to the "I have better things to do" mentality and hiring someone to do the low priority stuff certainly has some appeal.
Very true in the workplace, but in that case we're being paid to do work, not necessarily being paid to do someone else's work. We all have certain things assigned to us, based on our position. There is an expectation, even in business, that we will accomplish the work we were assigned.
I would think that being hired at $80k to be a DBA and then paying someone else $40k to be the DBA for you, giving you $40k of profit, would be frowned upon, and likely considered fraud as well.
I do see the argument that it's not priority work and you should be able to hire someone to do it, but I don't think that's a valid argument in college. You're being asked to accomplish things both as a learning exercise, and as a "get work done" exercise. You might think there's no point, but being able to get it done when there is not necessarily a point is also something you learn. I know later in life the same thing happens. We're definitely asked to do things that seem pointless at various times.
September 20, 2011 at 9:04 am
Ian Scarlett (9/20/2011)
All of this just reiterates the need to make job candidates answer real technical questions and/or sit a relevant test as part of an interview.You have to take CVs and qualifications with a pinch of salt. Many of those CVs will have been written by someone else for them as well!!
Head Hunters will often times "edit" or "enhance" resumes before submitting them to a client, with or without the consent or knowledge of the job seeker.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
September 20, 2011 at 9:15 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (9/20/2011)
James Goodwin (9/20/2011)
This line in the article struck me:It's just plain wrong to hire someone to do your work,
In the context of coursework this is true because the point of coursework isn't to get the work done but to learn from doing the work.
However, in general, this is not true. If it was, none of us would have jobs. Our lives and world are filled with hiring other people to do work that we want to have done but don't want to do. Such is the benefit of specialization.
There is certainly some dissonance in course work due to the "I have better things to do" mentality and hiring someone to do the low priority stuff certainly has some appeal.
...I would think that being hired at $80k to be a DBA and then paying someone else $40k to be the DBA for you, giving you $40k of profit, would be frowned upon, and likely considered fraud as well...
Possibly, but I'd expect many companies will simply look at the fact that what they wanted done has been done, and at the price they expected. Of course, they may have issues with an unvetted third party getting to see their data, but that's a separate issue.
More to the point, you'd be getting paid $80k to put your name to the solution you find. If a problem arose with the work done by your budget DBA, you certainly wouldn't have the option of pleading that it wasn't your fault, and you'd have to take responsibility both for the problem and any fix for it. Of course, if you've been sitting around with your feet up instead of building up your skills and experience, you'll be less well equipped to extract yourself from the mire, and you've no-one to thank but yourself.....
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
September 20, 2011 at 9:39 am
Well said. Most of the replies have already stated what I was thinking.
Once these people get out of college and into the workplace, they will still be expecting someone else to do their work for them.
September 20, 2011 at 9:40 am
A few years ago I would go to a c# site that included access to SQL Server and respond to questions. Many of them would be very simplistic and almost too simple to have a serious developer be unable to solve them. After a few weeks one contributor who also answered many questions asked one questioner "Are you really having that much trouble doing your homework?" That helped me understand what I was doing.
In an attempt to find problems and learn from the as I helped others, I was doing their homework. You can do this without knowing it and as a professional we need to point to the answer but not give the answer.
As a baby chick has to break and peck away the shell to be ready to face life, the novice developer and DBA needs to learn their early lessons the hard way so that later there is an easy way. Without the learning by themselves they lack the skills to find or create solutions.
M.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
September 20, 2011 at 10:35 am
would think that being hired at $80k to be a DBA and then paying someone else $40k to be the DBA for you, giving you $40k of profit, would be frowned upon, and likely considered fraud as well.
Interestingly, there is a book called "The Four Hour Work Week" that advocates outsourcing parts of your job (and parts of your life) in order to free up time for yourself.
However, my primary point is that there is a disconnect between university, where doing the work is important and the workplace where getting the work done is the focus. In a workplace, looking up a solution online is reasonable and expected behavior. In a university its is plagiarism and subject to expulsion. I have heard of university rules where having someone proofread your paper was considered cheating. In the workplace not having someone proofread your paper would be unacceptable.
This disconnect is why a lot of university classes seem pointless and I can understand why someone might want to avoid the drudgery. Especially since most people are in university for the piece of paper, not the knowledge.
--
JimFive
September 20, 2011 at 10:47 am
The measure of a man's real character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out. ~Thomas Babington Macaulay
September 20, 2011 at 10:57 am
Although I've seen the practice fequently maligned, if the position being applied for requires coding, or copy-writing, or something where a simple assignment can be given during the interview to be completed in an isolated/managed environment (no phones and no external internet), then simply assign it. I've known candidates talk their way through an interview quite successfully but then put a code assignment in front of them and they get up and leave the interview. I've worked with "talkers" where I've had to do much of their work as they're incapable, despite purporting to have a decade of relevant experience - a practical assignment would have closed the door to them before they wasted a day of $100/hour consulting fees. I've been asked to "prove it" several times over my 35+ years in programming and am never offended by it. I can leave the interview with integrity intact even if I don't get the job. As cheating is so prevalent, raise the bar! No more free beer 😀
September 20, 2011 at 11:30 am
The most secure and best paying jobs are those where you do something that would be extremly difficult for another person to do. That's a good position to be in, especially in this economy. All of us have occasional time consuming and repetitive tasks that could be farmed out to a 3rd party, but the goal should be that you then focus your time on the tasks that really matter.
Regarding the mythical 4 hour work week; if your boss found out that you were farming out the bulk of your job to a shadow, he'd just eliminate the middle man by firing you and hiring your shadow at a lower rate.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
September 20, 2011 at 12:19 pm
GSquared (9/20/2011)
Actually, I've had my resume plagiarized. How weird is that?
Normally, I'd agree that it's pretty weird. But then again, I know you... 😀
I just have to ask... did you get the job offer?
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
September 20, 2011 at 12:32 pm
WayneS (9/20/2011)
GSquared (9/20/2011)
Actually, I've had my resume plagiarized. How weird is that?Normally, I'd agree that it's pretty weird. But then again, I know you... 😀
I just have to ask... did you get the job offer?
Well, true. Weird and me do kind of go together well.
Someone tried to use my resume off of Monster, and forgot to change the e-mail address. I got an e-mail, "thank you for submitting your resume, we would like to schedule an interview" for a place I never submitted to. Turned out the person submitting had changed the name, the address, the phone number, a few trivial details, and left in my e-mail address. Since the hiring manager was the one who confirmed that to me, I seriously doubt he took that person any further in the process, but I never followed up.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 20, 2011 at 12:38 pm
Maybe, it just that students are doing what they have learned from big business; when you want something done, outsource or subcontract the work to be done. They are just starting at the game earlier then we would like.
September 20, 2011 at 7:54 pm
GSquared (9/20/2011)
WayneS (9/20/2011)
GSquared (9/20/2011)
Actually, I've had my resume plagiarized. How weird is that?Normally, I'd agree that it's pretty weird. But then again, I know you... 😀
I just have to ask... did you get the job offer?
Well, true. Weird and me do kind of go together well.
Someone tried to use my resume off of Monster, and forgot to change the e-mail address. I got an e-mail, "thank you for submitting your resume, we would like to schedule an interview" for a place I never submitted to. Turned out the person submitting had changed the name, the address, the phone number, a few trivial details, and left in my e-mail address. Since the hiring manager was the one who confirmed that to me, I seriously doubt he took that person any further in the process, but I never followed up.
Unbelievable. If I had been the hiring manager, I think I would have asked you for your actual resume, called the guy in for an interview, and confronted him. Maybe even have you on the phone. It would have been fun anyway!
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
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