May 13, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Well said Grant.
The replies were all interesting, as well. It makes me wonder if some of the issues with the posts is how we as readers interpret them at any given time. Am I having a bad day and is this one of my pet pevies? Did I as a poster say it the same way I would have said it in person? I personnally have a hard time connunication my feelings in writing. 🙂 before these that is. I have been accused of having my feeling hurt by what someone emailed me because of how I responded. And my feeling never get hurt.
May 13, 2010 at 2:11 pm
I try to contribute when I can, but I find that there are an impressive number of people on these forums with substantially more knowledge than me. I have had a few questions answered, sometimes rather quickly and sometimes with much more detail than I expected.
The rules I try to live by in the forums:
Ask questions with a reasonable scope while providing adequate detail.
If I get useful help, make sure to say thanks.
Contribute answers that are helpful without actually doing their job for them.
May 13, 2010 at 10:22 pm
I stopped being helpful online about 5 years ago. I'm not interested in helping some stranger in the far reaches of <insert developing nation here> to take my hard-earned knowledge for free and then potentially use it to undercut me in my local market. Not to mention that frequently the help was completely unappreciated. My skills are my business and I use them to earn a living. It's not smart business to give away your knowledge for free even if it is to help the community. I share and mentor through my professional network.
I also don't give away knowledge in job interviews. If the questions are overly specific or complex, I decline to answer and state my reasons. If I don't know the answer I say so. Hire me if you want the answer and fire me if it's no good.
James Stover, McDBA
May 14, 2010 at 2:43 am
Ugh!.......James Stover....
...............how can you say that?
I agree that we must work and earn money. Yes, I agree. Its life.
But one of the first rules to be an exceptional employee is sharing. I share information with all my coworkers and all who ask me for help.
If at present, we all have a high degree of knowledge, in the past that would not be so! Certainly in the past, there was a need to ask someone for help.
Is always like this, always learn something with another person.
Share your knowledge!
Jorge Gomes
May 14, 2010 at 6:49 am
James Stover (5/13/2010)
I stopped being helpful online about 5 years ago. I'm not interested in helping some stranger in the far reaches of <insert developing nation here> to take my hard-earned knowledge for free and then potentially use it to undercut me in my local market. Not to mention that frequently the help was completely unappreciated. My skills are my business and I use them to earn a living. It's not smart business to give away your knowledge for free even if it is to help the community. I share and mentor through my professional network.I also don't give away knowledge in job interviews. If the questions are overly specific or complex, I decline to answer and state my reasons. If I don't know the answer I say so. Hire me if you want the answer and fire me if it's no good.
The only part of this I agree with is not helping others in other countries that we currently outsource American jobs to, particularly India and China. That has to stop. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 14, 2010 at 6:44 pm
jorge_gomes98 (5/14/2010)
Ugh!.......James Stover...................how can you say that?
I agree that we must work and earn money. Yes, I agree. Its life.
But one of the first rules to be an exceptional employee is sharing. I share information with all my coworkers and all who ask me for help.
If at present, we all have a high degree of knowledge, in the past that would not be so! Certainly in the past, there was a need to ask someone for help.
Is always like this, always learn something with another person.
Share your knowledge!
Jorge Gomes
Wow, what a thoughtful response for my honest opinion. If you had actually read my post, I said: "I share and mentor through my professional network." It's your unfortunate problem if that's not good enough, because I am completely comfortable with it. My professional network extends to people I work with, have worked with, have met at industry functions, user groups, etc. These are people at every level - from juniors to CIO. I share, they share, we all learn from each other. However, I WILL not give away my hard-earned knowledge only to be undercut by it later. This is the ugly side of globalisation - a race to the bottom. I'm not going to run any faster than I absolutely have to. Not broadcasting my knowledge to complete (unappreciative and indignant) strangers is one way to slow this race down.
James Stover, McDBA
May 14, 2010 at 10:20 pm
Well said, and too true, Grant. The discussion has been interesting too.
Forums really shouldn't be a resource of last resort, especially in an emergency. A forum is not a help desk. A forum has no service level agreements with anyone posting a question. When all is said and done, a forum is a just a gathering place for people with shared technical and professional interests.
People who understand that the participants are all individuals just sharing some of their time to help each other out and swap ideas can get enormous benefits. But forums definitely can't substitute for training, experience, research, and just plain getting your hands dirty trying and figuring stuff out.
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
May 17, 2010 at 5:23 am
Thanks to all the comments. Steve posted this on a day I was going out into the woods, so I'm just now getting back to begin the process of responding. I'm glad to see it struck a chord with a few people.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 17, 2010 at 5:24 am
lmu92 (5/13/2010)
Excellent job, Grant!The only question that remains open is: Where to draw the line?
But I guess it's almost impossible to answer...
Interview questions, test/homework, almost complete projects, several hundred lines of uncommented and unformatted code, urgent request and the like are easy to put in the "no-go box". But where should consulting begin instead of forum assistance?
I think the line gets drawn by the indivual's that choose to respond, but I think the questioners will be much happier if they come into this with the right expectations.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 17, 2010 at 5:31 am
sburcombe (5/13/2010)
While I agree with everything you've said, I wonder if perhaps you're forgetting how it is to be one of the little guys.I'm in the fortunate position where I can mentor others, but still need help occasionally with the really complicated stuff. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect that many do what I do. Spend hours, days, or even weeks, trying to solve a problem. When all else fails, I go to a forum to get other opinions. The forums are not the be-all and end-all, they're a last resort. Many times I don't even get a response. That could be the reason for caps; at least it might conjure up some interest. Then some of the answers I get are so completely irrelevant and obviously wrong that I wonder if the 'expert' even read the question. But rarely I get one, the needle in the haystack, that's worth wading through all the crud for.
I certainly don't expect anyone to do my job for me. I've seen posts where that's clearly what the requestor is looking for, but they're usually few and far between. And if I happen to be the 'expert' on those occasions, that's when I just stop answering the questions. If you spoon-feed someone, they'll keep coming back for more.
When I post a question, I'm looking for a collaborator, not a babysitter. But don't waste my time either, by not reading past the first line of the question.
I am absolutely positive that I both, forget what it's like to be a "little guy" and get daily reminders exactly how "little" I am. The key, at least for me, is the expectactions of the questioner. When I post a question, and I've posted some egregiously stupid ones, a couple of things I try not to do and a couple of things I try to do. I don't post in an emergency mode. That's just silly. You may or may not get someone who knows what they're doing responding, but you can't count on getting a response in a timely fashion. I don't post with any expectation of getting an answer, only the hope of getting one. I do try to define what I've looked at or attempted so that I can avoid the "check to see if it's switched on" type of answers that are mandatory when there is inadequate information provided. I do try to be helpful to those who are helping me, because I know I'm not paying them.
It's this stuff that I was hoping to put across, with mixed results. Thanks for the feedback. That's a gift and it's appreciated.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 17, 2010 at 5:35 am
Ben Holcombe-270296 (5/13/2010)
I completely agree that demanding requests are arrogant and insulting. I hope that I never have the opportunity to work under those individuals posting these requests.The flip side is that I also agree that the novice sometimes feels the wrath of the swiftly swinging pendulum.
There is lazy and self entitlement then there is the newbie who really does need a set of training wheels and a strong push on the back. It’s always a rough start but we all want them to succeed.
And the honest newbie, I hope, gets help here. But, someone, new or experienced, who swoops in with expectations of major solutions to giant problems... they're trying to get something for nothing.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 17, 2010 at 5:38 am
TheSQLGuru (5/13/2010)
>> I can't count the number of times someone has fired back a "Boy you sure are dumb if you haven't done "X,Y,Z" already" without even reading far enough to see that I'ld already tried "X, Y, and Z" as well as "AA through AZ".I despise that type of poster. They are either padding their ego, padding their posting count or both, but regardless of the reason there is no excuse for getting down on a poster. Well, sometimes the poster can be an @ss too I suppose, often from some sense of entitlement. 🙁
I freely admit, and humbly apologize, to having done this. It's just easy to screw up sometimes and see a couple of sentences and assume an answer and quickly reel that off without reading the whole question. Just like the people that unintentionally post silly questions, it's possible to unintentionally post a silly answer.
You'll probably notice though that those are primarily drive-by postings. Someone zip-lines into the conversation, leaves something brown & smelly behind, and zip-lines back out, never to be seen again.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 17, 2010 at 5:41 am
The Dixie Flatline (5/14/2010)
Well said, and too true, Grant. The discussion has been interesting too.Forums really shouldn't be a resource of last resort, especially in an emergency. A forum is not a help desk. A forum has no service level agreements with anyone posting a question. When all is said and done, a forum is a just a gathering place for people with shared technical and professional interests.
People who understand that the participants are all individuals just sharing some of their time to help each other out and swap ideas can get enormous benefits. But forums definitely can't substitute for training, experience, research, and just plain getting your hands dirty trying and figuring stuff out.
Oooh, good one. I wish I'd thought of it. "A forum has no service level agreements..." Excellently put. I think that sums it up better than I did.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 17, 2010 at 10:11 am
This issue is not limited to database advice, programming advice, or even computers in general. I volunteer on a soccer board, handling registration. We receive complaints about how poorly registration is handled all the time. This year we offered 50 days of registration at one park district site, 60 days at another, and 3 days of our own. Not 10 minutes after getting home from the last day of registration, I received an email complaining that "we only offered one day", another "I refuse to pay the late fee", and the best one "you need to have a board member at the park district to answer questions!".
So let me see, our board members should quit their job so they can hang out at the park district to answer your questions, all of which are answered on our web site. We also provide every board member's phone number on the site, and an email address. Yet it is our fault you couldn't find the time in two months to sign up little Johnny or Suzie to play soccer.
It seems that our country is quickly moving to a situation where everyone feels they are entitled to what they want when they want it, and pity those of us who actually are self sufficient.
Dave
May 17, 2010 at 10:22 am
Posters of questions- keep in mind that the experts aren't with you, don't know what you have tried, have no idea how competent you are, et cetera. Frequently the experts here (and myself in other situations) have to deal with someone stating how they tried x, y or z, when they really didn't. It could be they are being less than truthful, knowing in their mind x, y or z won't work (whether they are right or wrong). It could be they thought they tried x, y or z, but really tried X, Y and Z instead.
I have not posted solutions here - I don't have confidence in my knowledge compared to others here. Yet there are other forums I do respond on. One such forum is used by those whose company purchased a particular product. Support covers 99% of the questions posted - but people expect "experts" to answer for free either because they don't want to call support, or they don't pay for support.
How is that my problem?
The experts who answer questions here do it for free. Free advice is worth what you pay for it - if you don't like it, don't ask. But don't whine about the quality of answers given.
Dave
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