August 27, 2009 at 1:17 pm
There's a lot to being a mentor. I've mentored before on the IBM midrange platforms. It takes a lot of time and effort. I spent many hours after work mentoring. That is if the mentoree is willing to do it after hours. Mentoring is not just showing off interesting code. It's teaching the student the how, the why, and what happens if it's done incorrectly. I once spent three hours explaining the IBM packed decimal format and how to tell if the data is in the correct bytes.
There's a difference between having a mentor and having someone around to bounce ideas off of.
August 27, 2009 at 1:30 pm
I agree, a mentor in real world is someone whom you help advance in their career and goals. We have mentors internally in the organisation where i work that supposedly help with that. As far as an outside mentor goes as far as technology goes - that is extremely hard to find. One people don't have time, two they are genuinely afraid of someone else getting to be as good as they are. I mentored someone myself once and the guy left his job and used what i taught to do an injection attack on the same company. After that I have developed some fears myself although am not paranoid but lots of people are. I'd be grateful if people come up with good things to say when there is an MVP nomination or something of that nature, even that does not happen many times.
August 27, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Apprenticeship programs are the most successful means of producing professionals and skilled craftsmen in the history of the human race. I wish they were still in primary use in Western so-called Civilization. But then I'm also in favor of guilds for professionals who've proven themselves. And I'm opposed to the idiotic method of "education" that we've adopted over the last century.
How many people realize that "modern education methodology" is based on a foundation that was originally created by the Brahmins of India with the express purpose of keeping lower caste people "in their place" and subserviant to the Brahmins? Our whole idea of lecturers and classrooms is based on a technique specifically designed to create productive but ignorant lackeys. And then we wonder why it does exactly that. Anyone who has ever attended a math class that didn't clearly communicate the basic purpose of math (which can be expressed in 3 simple words), has been a victim of this. Anyone who has ever attended a science class that didn't clearly explain the exact purpose and relevance of science and how it ties to all success and survival for any human, has also been a victim of this. The list goes on.
Thus, yeah, I'm very much in favor of mentor/apprentice training, as opposed to classroom certification of useful ignorance, and as also opposed to forcing everyone alive to reinvent the darn wheel.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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August 27, 2009 at 1:46 pm
I think the discussion is going way out of the point. But to clarify this is completely false that education system in India was designed the way this person says. The education system was based on student stayign with the 'guru' (Gurukula it is called) or teacher and learn based on lifestyle, not bookish theory. It is a strongly lead by example method that is in use in very minimal ways by yoga teachers and some spiritual gurus that is all. It was later taken over during British invasion 250 years ago and modified into student teacher curriculum as exists in the west and of course politics and racism played into it as it has in every country in various ways. In short there was no education system specifically designed in India to keep people down ever.
This is not a forum to discuss that - technical education also is very different from other forms of education, people learn from experience, certification, seminars a lot of processes not just in schools. That has been discussed again a lot on another thread.
August 27, 2009 at 2:16 pm
dma (8/27/2009)
I think the discussion is going way out of the point. But to clarify this is completely false that education system in India was designed the way this person says. The education system was based on student stayign with the 'guru' (Gurukula it is called) or teacher and learn based on lifestyle, not bookish theory. It is a strongly lead by example method that is in use in very minimal ways by yoga teachers and some spiritual gurus that is all. It was later taken over during British invasion 250 years ago and modified into student teacher curriculum as exists in the west and of course politics and racism played into it as it has in every country in various ways. In short there was no education system specifically designed in India to keep people down ever.This is not a forum to discuss that - technical education also is very different from other forms of education, people learn from experience, certification, seminars a lot of processes not just in schools. That has been discussed again a lot on another thread.
That's the system the Brahmins used for each other and for the other high caste families. It's got parallels all throughout pre-industrial societies, such as the Agoge of the Spartans, the master/apprentice systems of pre-industrial Europe, and others. It has few current parallels that I know of, but there are still remnants of it here and there. (I think the world would benefit from a resurrection of the method, personally.)
If you seriously believe that India did not have systems for keeping the "untouchables" down, then you need to take a better look at the sub-continent's history. But you're right that this isn't the right forum for that. If you'd care to continue the discussion, I'm always fascinated by the opportunity to get another person's view on history, and you can e-mail me separately (click on my user-name and select "Send Email to User", and make sure the subject line indicates that it's you, or it might end up being lost in my spam filter).
Your point about education for IT being "different" is something I disagree with. In most professional fields, people do book learning in school in order to be allowed to work with more experienced people in their chosen field, and that's where they really learn their job. Doctors do internships, lawyers join a firm and work their way up to being partners (or senior partners), and so on. I think most IT fields would benefit from that structure, and in many cases, it is what's done. It's just not as formal as it often has been in other fields or pre-industrial societies.
But in all fields, it starts out by brave/curious/brilliant/insane individuals forging the paths that others will then follow, or avoid, depending on their success and popularity and marketing. I don't think IT has yet hit the point where it can be formalized like law or medicine. Both of those have millennia of tradition and background, trial and error. IT has a few decades. It'll eventually mature as a subject, but it's not there yet. On the maturity scale, I see IT as having gone through it's "terrible twos" years in the 80s/90s (parents will know what I mean by that), and is just barely up to day care and pre-kindergarden years right now. Right now, it's still in that frontier mode, where people are exploring. Some find successful methods (avoid cursors, use set-based code in the database, object-oriented programming, test your backups, TCP/IP, keep your antivirus software up-to-date, etc.), and others are still looking around to find out if Agile and its ilk have any endurance to them or are just fads, and so on.
In either case, formal or informal apprenticeship is going to be more successful than just book education on the subject. Finding a mentor to apprentice under is important. Don't do like me and spend a decade re-inventing wheels that other people have already done a better job on. (And also don't do like me and type hundreds of words beyond what's necessary.)
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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August 27, 2009 at 2:25 pm
I think most people that will not mentor may not know subject on very low level but knows just enough to do their jobs. I also don't think people who actually knows are afraid of others knowing more because most experts explain things in just a few words.
I would like to give back Microsoft the existing services architecture take OSLO SSIS package decouple it and add a package that connects to four, five or six datasources including RDBMS. Then create an implementation that can be consumed by Asp.net, cloud, BI Services, Mobile all connecting to Membership Services in 30 to 40 languages. I just woke up back on planet earth it is a Sisyphean task to find a mentor when you want to replace existing implementation. I raw object model, would like to dream in the base class and raw relational modeling.
:Whistling:
😎
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
August 27, 2009 at 2:25 pm
🙂 I enjoyed reading your post thank you, and agree very much with the fact that IT would benefit from a formal structure. It is not mature enough for that and the problem with IT is the number of jobs and livelihoods that are spawned by a specific product and giant companies like Microsoft. I mean unless you are into software R&D people like us (SQL Server DBAs) are in some ways really reinventing wheels all day, nothign we do has not been thought of by someone else somewhere. But atleast we are in a profession that has some growth prospects (as of now atleast) and we bring value to our jobs by finding or reinventing wheels. The paranoia in the profession around mentoring also unfortunately has to do with that, that you can so easily copy what someone else did and pawn it off as your own.
I am not a huge history buff unfortunately - my belief is that every country and culture has its history of bias/exploitation and some people advancing at the cost of others. I don't like picking on India or some country like that as an example in particular.
August 27, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Man, did this discussion take a bad turn or what. I just wanted a FRIENDLY discussion on mentoring. One thing you all should remember is that you should learn from history, not be mad about it.
August 27, 2009 at 2:53 pm
There are 2 ways we learn, mentors and mistakes. A mentor can be a person, but it can also be a support group like SSC or your local user group. Anywhere where there is not only good information, but someone to help walk you through the thought processes they used. Sucess lies in the thought processes behind our actions.
Having a mentor is one of the most important things you can do in any area of life. I've been involved in a business mentorship program for the last few years where I've had the opportunity to get mentorship from several multi-millioaire businessmen and the rewards have been huge in all areas of my life, family, marriage, work, spiritual, all. Specialized skills like SQL Server are no different. A mentor can make you into the DBA you could not otherwise become on your own.
August 27, 2009 at 3:01 pm
hickshugh (8/27/2009)
Man, did this discussion take a bad turn or what. I just wanted a FRIENDLY discussion on mentoring. One thing you all should remember is that you should learn from history, not be mad about it.
I don't think it took a bad turn nor became unfriendly. It just got interesting is all.
The whole point of my post is learning from history.
Someone I know expressed a good attitude about history. Goes something like this, "I am not my ancestors, and thus am neither culpable for their crimes for praisable for their benevolences. We're human beings, and our purpose in life is to improve beyond our past, be it good, bad, or indifferent."
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
August 27, 2009 at 3:11 pm
dma (8/27/2009)
🙂 I enjoyed reading your post thank you, and agree very much with the fact that IT would benefit from a formal structure. It is not mature enough for that and the problem with IT is the number of jobs and livelihoods that are spawned by a specific product and giant companies like Microsoft. I mean unless you are into software R&D people like us (SQL Server DBAs) are in some ways really reinventing wheels all day, nothign we do has not been thought of by someone else somewhere. But atleast we are in a profession that has some growth prospects (as of now atleast) and we bring value to our jobs by finding or reinventing wheels. The paranoia in the profession around mentoring also unfortunately has to do with that, that you can so easily copy what someone else did and pawn it off as your own.I am not a huge history buff unfortunately - my belief is that every country and culture has its history of bias/exploitation and some people advancing at the cost of others. I don't like picking on India or some country like that as an example in particular.
Then we agree on all particulars.
I wasn't picking on India. Trust me. There isn't a culture on this planet that hasn't had its low points. India, in fact, has had so many high points that the low points stand out in very stark contrast. Heck, the Bhagavad Gita alone counts as one of humanity's major high points, and let's not discount the whole concept of base-10 numbers, the number zero, and a semi-infinity of other contributions to humanity. But this is also the same culture that created the untouchable caste and the Thugee. Everyone's got their good and their bad in their history. That's one of the reasons I love the subject.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
August 27, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Anyway, thanks for the information on the users group. I appreciated the discussion
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