February 5, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Oh my, Steve - that's a big can of worms you just opened! I suspect you'll get more interesting comments from those using an alias. 😀
I've been in corporations where I didn't trust the VP levels, and ones where I did (and it depended greatly on the VP's actions over time). And yes, I've been on that "short list", since I tend to be pretty outspoken. Oddly enough, I've never had a problem finding another job within 3 months of starting the search - and the only time I went 3 months was when I started in December (yeah, Christmas break slows things down). I guess the hiring managers at my preferred companies valued honesty above brown-nosing (and I'll pass on working for any the prefer it vice-versa).
I think that's a good question to ask during the interview, along with "what's your company's five-year plan look like" and "explain how your group handles a project with an un-realistic time frame". It gets mighty quiet in an office when an interviewee pops off a question that is soooo unexpected! "Do you trust your [twice-removed] manager to make appropriate business decisions related to your group and the projects you normally support?" I love to watch those eyeballs pop...
:w00t:
Steph Brown
February 6, 2008 at 1:43 am
Totally agree with those sentiments - seldom (bordering on never) have i worked in a job where short-term career path to the top wasn't put in front of everything else. The thing I find amazing, though, is that these people almost never see that doing the groundwork well will untimately advance their position simply by allowing them/their teams to be more productive (and produce more quality - which is often overlooked too).
The general trend for me is.....get a job in a place that talks the talk at interview but in reality is a shambles....work my butt off to introduce patterns and practices, architectures and frameworks with zero support from above...deliver quality apps to the desk on the back of the poorest of analysis(I single out end users and bypass the reams of useless documentation - every time I'm amazed at the uselessness of business/systems/etc. analysis)...then...I ALWAYS find that "managers" crop up out of nowhere and take over, pilling in behind the success of the project/product.
I'm used to this now and know that that's how it works but it just totally bemuses(and often amuses) me that these folks don't even invest the time to know what the product actually is/does/etc. before claiming it as their own.
I also find that if a project is successful suddenly, overnight, the management hierarchy deepens - career builders on the move which is fair enough but ultimately it leaves the people who made the thing a success feeling futher down the ladder. So often have I seen the best people with the most motivation and drive to have a project succeed - and who ultimately MAKE the thing succeed - being...well...ignored. And I not just talking about technical people but mostly, in fact, the users who drive the thing on behalf of their peers.
The other thing that does annoy me depending on my mood on any given day is managers taking full credit for things while the person who did that work/came up with that idea/etc. is actually sitting in the same meeting - if managers are reading this you lose nothing but merely "implying" that it was a "team effort". What you gain is some respect from your team and, to my mind equally, respect from the people you are ultimately trying to impress.
Ok, rant over. And I don't even know now if it was even on topic so, about the manager/executive asking for feedback I will say that a group meeting like that is very seldom a good forum in which to get honest and useful feedback. But then I suspect the manager in question already knows that.
February 6, 2008 at 2:49 am
I think we should link this topic back with yesterday's (about employee recognition), because the two are very closely related.
Do I trust my management one level up? Yes.
Two levels up? Yes.
Three levels up? Yes.
Four levels up? Yes.
Why? Because they've all demonstrated a willingness to fight in my corner. If I've done something good, all of them have at some point or another come over and thanked me. If I've made a mistake (so long as it's not a repeat of a mistake I've made before), they've let me correct it, helping out as necessary. If I've said something unpalatable to them for all the right reasons, they've listened.
The general philosophy is that people can't improve without risking making mistakes, so if you want the improvement you have to live with the errors too. As a company, we tend to praise in public, criticise in private, and don't do too badly with morale and positive feedback as a result.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
February 6, 2008 at 5:05 am
We have a relatively flat structure here. There are three levels above me. My direct supervisor, her boss, and then COO.
The question of do you trust manager X is interesting. Yes, I trust them, but at the same time I don't. It is in the best interest of a corporation to keep quiet about terminations. I cant speak for other states, but here it is "Work at Will". A company can fire you for no reason, just as we are able to simply walk away from our jobs. And it is for this reason that management doesn't tip its hand.
When I was a consultant I was brought into a company (now gone, go figure) to fill a vacancy that was created. The new VP for IT was brought in to "clean up" the dept, and rather than cherry pick the talent and cut the dead wood, she simply fired every single employee en masse (about 50 people). Had them escorted out the door by security. That's when myself and about 3 dozen consultants were brought in. Her stated rationale was she didn't have the time, nor desire to sift through the employees. She also wanted to A) set precedent, B) start with a clean slate. Do I think she went overboard, yes. But unfortunately, we never got to see if she would succeed, 9-11 came around and all consulting contracts were terminated, and the company collapsed about 3 months later.
Oh, and the comment about senior level sacrificing a junior member for their personal gain.. I think you're being overly optimistic. I've seen plenty of instances when the sacrificing was merely for amusement, personal sentiment, (corporate & public sector) politics, and/or plain old fashioned mean spiritedness.
Honor Super Omnia-
Jason Miller
February 6, 2008 at 5:18 am
One thing which is important to point out is a large study that was done. 1 of 10 VP/etc have or has slight psychopath tendensies. One example of this is, the boss walks into the room with 10 employees, he makes a joke, but it's at one of the 10 employees expensive. This is to put himself above the others but still make peeps more or less happy but also to show who is in controll. Now 1/10 is a much higher number then what is avarge (which I have forgotten). Just thought it might be relevant to mention.
I find it best never to have high expectations but take it as it comes. Dont trust and dont give a weakness away unless relly needed. What one says and what one does is for many people very different things. It's few of us that does what we say.
February 6, 2008 at 5:48 am
Corporate executives (and managers) are not taught leadership - what it means, what it takes, what the rewards are. Leadership is all about creating that trust, so that you can "lead" your team to do things that are against their better judgment sometimes, because they trust you. It is how you move from herding cats to actually managing.
Leadership skills are not expected of execs, and they are not evaluated on how well they lead.
When an executive does actually have and use leadership skills, in my experience, they are at least tolerable and add value to the process.
February 6, 2008 at 5:53 am
Good stuff Steve.
I believe there are two types of managers: those who say "Follow Me!" and those who say "Go Do That!" I consider the first type Leaders because, well, they're leading. I can't think of a good term for folks who simply Dictate what they want others to do... can you? 😉
:{> Andy
Andy Leonard, Chief Data Engineer, Enterprise Data & Analytics
February 6, 2008 at 6:11 am
The problem with doing the con call and then asking for questions is that short of implementation specific questions (do I get one gold star or two if Im good?) everyone knows the course has been set. If you really want feedback embrace transparency enough to convene a meeting of a good cross section of the troops, tell them the problem you see, the potential solution you see, and then open up for discussion. You may get rants about your solution (or your problem definition), but you may also get some alternatives you had not considered. As long as they know its not a democracy they'll still appreciate being part of the decision cycle and you can leverage their involvement when you make your announcements.
On the employee side, while maybe it's too late, what's the harm in asking the question? Odds are you're not the only one thinking it and when was the last time someone got fired for asking a question? Asking a good question could well affect things and if nothing else, shows that you're thoughtful and heck, might even be a leader someday!
February 6, 2008 at 6:24 am
During my 20 years in the military (I retired and joined the corporate world 10 years ago), I learned the military views management and leadership as two separate ideas. You manage resources and lead people. It seems most corporate executives are managers, great a controlling budgets and other non-human resources, but poor at leadership. Often times because it is much easier to manage than it is to lead.
February 6, 2008 at 6:34 am
Excellent points Dave.
I think Drucker said something like "Management is doing things right. Leadership is doing the right things."
And thanks for serving.
:{> Andy
Andy Leonard, Chief Data Engineer, Enterprise Data & Analytics
February 6, 2008 at 6:39 am
What a great concept - you manage resources, and you lead people.
Of course, since the corporate world considers people to be resources, they think that the skill set is the same - you slot "human resources" the same way you slot phones and desks. Plug them in, and they work!
February 6, 2008 at 7:20 am
I rarely am afraid of the C-level folks when they ask for an opinion, since for most of my career, they've been so far up the food chain. The rare C-level officer that actually asks for feedback wants the real deal and not regurgitated euphemisms. The ones that worry me are those pseudo managers in the middle, the ones that aren't willing to bring the concerns up even when they're perfectly appropriate. I call them "middling management".
I've ended up on the infamous short list before, but I was there because I apparently burst someone's perfect bubble of lies in the chain of command above me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
February 6, 2008 at 8:10 am
I can certainly identify with this editorial - and have encountered many, many managers whose loyalty to their staff is as ephemeral as the weather, but who nevertheless expect undying devotion in return;).
My dad was a big influence on me - he spent 25 years as an officer in the Royal Air Force before leaving and going into IT, in his forties. This story has always struck me as the ultimate management morality tale (so I hope you'll indulge me for repeating it on this forum 🙂 )
While commanding 233 Squadron in Aden in the Middle East, in the early '60s, a very difficult and dangerous posting, he had persistent discipline problems with one of his ground crew, a Welsh mechanic called Jones. Jones was late on duty, AWOL, his uniform was often untidy, he was drunk on duty a couple of times, he was rapidly heading for a court-martial and cashiering.
But dad saw through him.
He had to fly somewhere early one morning, and selected Jones to prepare and fuel the aircraft. "Jones", he said, "I want my aircraft ready for a 7am departure tomorrow."
Now anyone who knows anything about flying will know about the interminable - and vital - preflight checks. The pilot has to inspect the exterior of the aircraft, check the tyres, the fuel lines, the rivets, the control surfaces. He then has to check the cockpit, the instruments, the oil pressures, the props (in those days), the magnetos, run the engines and check all the instrumentation etc. And finally, once cleared for takeoff, he has to run all engines up to full power at the beginning of the runway before beginning his takeoff, and any hiccup means the takeoff is aborted.
So Jones, complete with clipboard and checklist, was expecting the 3rd degree when dad arrived.
Jones saluted. Dad ignored the external checks (probably the only time in his life he ever did this) and climbed straight into the cockpit. He leaned out and said "Remove the chocks" (the blocks in front of the wheels to prevent the aircraft moving when on the ground).
And without a single further check, he started the engines, revved to full power, and took off.
End of problem. After that, Jones' discipline was immaculate, and he would spend his spare time polishing the squadron's aircraft. And all because his commanding officer had had enough insight to see through the surface resentment and bad attitude, and recognise work which was of such quality that he was willing to risk his life on it.
Now that's management.
February 6, 2008 at 8:48 am
Great topic Steve!
I think you hit it right on the head for corporate life. I do admit that smaller corporations and businesses have a step up on this type situation. It's much easier to know if your boss is honest, sincere and about the company or about themselves.
Corporate is politics (internally) and as they say it's eat or get eaten. I've been in both situations; I've found myself much happier with the smaller corporation. Not only does most of the politics and watch my own back (aka CYA) go away; but also the perks reappear. I see the direct results of my own contributions, I have much more immediate feedback (good or bad), and competitive pay...what's that? I get what I deserve and scoff at the polls on what entry-level, mid-level or whatever gets. Not to mention benefits (medical coverage, 401k, etc).
Sure is nice to work at a company that wants their employees to stay and work hard, accept responsibility for their actions and get rewarded as is fit for each person/situation. I've never seen all of this within any 1000+ employee corporation (it's one or the other, and almost always about getting ahead).
If you get in the door with the right successful SMB then never let go! Your health will rise, your bank account will thank you...and you might find yourself on the freeway sitting still for no good reason, but without the road rage!! =)
Thanks,
James
~ Without obstacles, you cannot progress ~
http://sqln.blogspot.com/
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