September 11, 2015 at 9:29 am
Eirikur Eiriksson (9/11/2015)
Mike Sofen-356112 (9/11/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (9/11/2015)
My 2 Cents, when working with large and often complex schema, cluttering a detail level ERD into a single diagram does neither make sense nor serve any purpose (apart from underlining the job's complexity to the management;-) ). Maintaining a high and medium level ERDs with smaller detailed ERDs reflecting (blow-up) the HLD/MLD elements makes much more sense, is easier to maintain and more legible.😎
This is a big, real issue for anyone working on large/complex dbs. I've used ErWin, ERStudio, and Xcase modeling tools and for me and my diagramming style, Xcase's ability to create drillable sub-models on a master model page is the cat's meow. Envision having subject areas of a database like sales, inventory, customers, suppliers, etc...each of those subject areas is a sub-model on the "surface" of the main model, all FK relationships retained at the main and sub-model levels and between sub-models...it's really a beautiful thing. Allows you to print/plot any/all, etc. The other products do this, just not as elegantly, IMO.
There are quite few ways of tackling these problems but I have found that modeling tools are not one of the efficient ones.
😎
They're great, until you need to do something outside of what they're designed to do 😀
September 11, 2015 at 9:37 am
Anyone use dbForge Studio to generate diagrams?
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
September 11, 2015 at 9:52 am
This kind of topic does well on a wiki.
I find it easier to see things in a tabular view, with a linear list of tables and columns.
Does anyone have some favorite queries for showing the metadata?
412-977-3526 call/text
September 11, 2015 at 10:00 am
hakim.ali (9/11/2015)
I'm going to play devil's advocate, and ask this question: why bother with creating or maintaining the ER diagram? What purpose does it serve after the very initial design stages? Sure, it graphically shows you all the entities, but so what? When do you ever need to see that? When you are designing a new feature that requires tables and relationships, or working on enhancing some existing feature set, all that matters to you are the immediate tables relevant to your task at hand. You can always use SSMS database diagrams to generate that. In ~13 years of working with database design and development, I have never really needed the full ERD, and I would find it difficult to justify spending the time to create one.
Properly done, an ER diagram is more than just an image. It provides a way to visually verify you have referential integrity on all of your tables which can be difficult when they number in the hundreds. Additionally, I use it (ERStudio) to document definitions of tables and fields so other developers know how and where the data is being used. When you break up the model into subject areas, you can quickly find the tables you need based on the functionality they provide in the application. (And BTW, printing out the model on the wall is old school. The newer tools provide reports as clickable HTML documents with drill down into the object details.)
September 11, 2015 at 10:02 am
Alvin Ramard (9/11/2015)
Anyone use dbForge Studio to generate diagrams?
Did try it briefly few years back, not bad but it didn't end up in the tool chest, main reason being my cross platform requirements.
😎
September 11, 2015 at 10:11 am
Wade_S (9/11/2015)
hakim.ali (9/11/2015)
I'm going to play devil's advocate, and ask this question: why bother with creating or maintaining the ER diagram? What purpose does it serve after the very initial design stages? Sure, it graphically shows you all the entities, but so what? When do you ever need to see that? When you are designing a new feature that requires tables and relationships, or working on enhancing some existing feature set, all that matters to you are the immediate tables relevant to your task at hand. You can always use SSMS database diagrams to generate that. In ~13 years of working with database design and development, I have never really needed the full ERD, and I would find it difficult to justify spending the time to create one.Properly done, an ER diagram is more than just an image. It provides a way to visually verify you have referential integrity on all of your tables which can be difficult when they number in the hundreds. Additionally, I use it (ERStudio) to document definitions of tables and fields so other developers know how and where the data is being used. When you break up the model into subject areas, you can quickly find the tables you need based on the functionality they provide in the application. (And BTW, printing out the model on the wall is old school. The newer tools provide reports as clickable HTML documents with drill down into the object details.)
I concur here. What I've found in complex databases, even when I know what most of the entities do, is that the complexity of changes is hard to understand without a good logical or physical model.
To me it's also a bit like a VCS in that it provides a central place where we can understand what structures we've built and how they are used in relation to each other. Getting that overview helps determine where we might be duplicating something we have, looking for denormalization additions, or other types of complexity we can refactor. Without seeing the visual representation of relationships it can be hard at times to comprehend the scope of proposed tasks.
September 11, 2015 at 10:20 am
Eirikur Eiriksson (9/11/2015)
Alvin Ramard (9/11/2015)
Anyone use dbForge Studio to generate diagrams?Did try it briefly few years back, not bad but it didn't end up in the tool chest, main reason being my cross platform requirements.
😎
I'm considering it for a tool I would use as a contractor. I'm not interested in cross platform and I'm looking for something inexpensive, since I'd the the one paying for it.
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
September 11, 2015 at 10:53 am
Thirty years ago I started my IT career after doing my MSc in IT. One of the modules was RDBMS. The company I started my IT career with had a product that used large text and csv files which the Technical Director wanted to see in a database. He had a reasonable understanding of RDBMS and between us we spent around a week designing the database. I then had one of the draftsmen create an ERD (I think it was A0 paper or its equivalent). Copies of this proved invaluable to explain to the team what we were trying to achieve and how. Testament to this was that the underlying database design is in use to this day in a cloud environment.
September 11, 2015 at 11:45 am
Alvin Ramard (9/11/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (9/11/2015)
Alvin Ramard (9/11/2015)
Anyone use dbForge Studio to generate diagrams?Did try it briefly few years back, not bad but it didn't end up in the tool chest, main reason being my cross platform requirements.
😎
I'm considering it for a tool I would use as a contractor. I'm not interested in cross platform and I'm looking for something inexpensive, since I'd the the one paying for it.
I think it is a good product and a fairly good bang for the buck.
😎
September 11, 2015 at 12:05 pm
Eirikur Eiriksson (9/11/2015)
Alvin Ramard (9/11/2015)
Eirikur Eiriksson (9/11/2015)
Alvin Ramard (9/11/2015)
Anyone use dbForge Studio to generate diagrams?Did try it briefly few years back, not bad but it didn't end up in the tool chest, main reason being my cross platform requirements.
😎
I'm considering it for a tool I would use as a contractor. I'm not interested in cross platform and I'm looking for something inexpensive, since I'd the the one paying for it.
I think it is a good product and a fairly good bang for the buck.
😎
Good to hear. Thanks.
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
September 14, 2015 at 7:22 am
My experience is that they are great initially as they help the developer build that picture in their mind. Over time they become less reliant on it. Maybe a few notes are penciled in over time as structures are enhanced. Eventually they are put aside and rarely used, let alone kept up to date. The time involved isn't worth the benefit.
September 14, 2015 at 7:28 am
So is this an area Red-Gate is trying to determine if they can do another ingenious solution?
412-977-3526 call/text
September 14, 2015 at 7:32 am
robert.sterbal 56890 (9/14/2015)
So is this an area Red-Gate is trying to determine if they can do another ingenious solution?
Great question. Red-Gate: are you?
Hakim Ali
www.sqlzen.com
September 14, 2015 at 8:51 am
hakim.ali (9/14/2015)
robert.sterbal 56890 (9/14/2015)
So is this an area Red-Gate is trying to determine if they can do another ingenious solution?Great question. Red-Gate: are you?
No, diagramming is nowhere on our radar that I know of, nor do I think we would build anything like this. While I think ER diagrams are great tools, it doesn't seem many people see the need, have the expertise or time to build and maintain them, nor is there much of a profit margin here. Especially when there are so many free tools that provide drawing capabilities and could be used.
Personally I think things like ErWin and ERStudio are invaluable, but they're also expensive. I think those companies would be better served selling their products for $300 and getting lots of copies out there and making this a regular practice, but they don't agree.
Disclosure: I work for Redgate Software.
September 14, 2015 at 9:09 am
It would be a nice addition to SQL Data Compare or SQL Compare.
412-977-3526 call/text
Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 53 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply