October 22, 2010 at 5:34 am
At 45, I have 23 years of IT experience, all of it in the SQL world. I truly enjoy just being a developer (not a DBA). In my 30's, I thought I'd try management but it was highly stressful, and just not for me, so I stepped down (withOUT a pay cut) and got back into coding. I have not experienced any age discrimination because of the fact that I point out what I just said to my bosses or hiring personnel. I don't want your job! I want you to tell me what to develop and I'll knock it out, period. I have the experience to do so, and just because I'm older it doesn't mean I can't sit in my chair and type any faster than a 20-something!
October 22, 2010 at 6:02 am
I'm coming up to 50 years since I wrote my first computer program. There's been a full technical career in there including the usual detours into sales and management. For the last twenty years I've been working on my own, using the vast business experience I have built up to help clients design solutions to their business problems (often goes into the boardroom as well, not all problems are solved with computers, are they).
Learning .Net has been refreshing and a big relief since so many things were difficult or impossible in COM. SQL Server is my utility Database and I use it as a data store, sorry not much interest in using it as much more.
I've hit age discrimination head on (ageism), and I deserve it as I think back to my young person's attitude towards older folks (my god, they were in their forties, how could they know anything). It's overcome by the fact that I really do get things done, I stay current with technology, and my business experience trumps enthusiasm.
October 22, 2010 at 6:13 am
I can tell you point-blank that there is tremendous discrimination of older workers in High Tech. Not only have I experienced it directly, I have many former co-workers and peers who right now, who have been out of work for months (some years) and who regularly see and experience this discrimination.
Before I was hired by my current employer, I mailed out no less than 1,455 resumes in my last job search and got 2 interviews. I was stunned. I have an MBA/CS, over 30 years of extensive experience in this field, certifications and awards, and yet each time I would find positions that were very well-suited, I would get all sorts of run-arounds including one from a very large insurance company where the HR person stated "we prefer to hire younger people". (For those of you who think this is actual legal discrimination, its not. I contacted a lawyer about that and he said it was not actionable).
However, there IS a silver lining to this... In the months I was out of work, looking for work, I had more independent and contract work than I had ever had at any time before in my career. Why? Because young people would not touch, and had no clue about older systems that as many of us know, are still used in the business world. I did a few XBase jobs, one RPG2 job, another COBOL job, and then spent a long time advising a start-up company. All of that work came to me because they could not find any younger person who had a clue about these dinosauric systems and languages.
I have been with my current employer for about four years now and thankfully, this company understands the value of not only age and experience, but the wisdom that comes with it too. Most of us in management in the company are over 50 and our corporate parent company actually seeks out older workers stating they want people not only with that, but the maturity and ability to deal with pressure that only age can bring.
But here is the really odd part of it all... In the four years since I got my current job I have had more phone calls coming to my home from recruiters looking for talents in older, specialized systems. I still cannot figure out how I sent out so many resumes during the "down time" and got 2 interviews, and yet now, gainfully employed, I am more in demand than I was 10 or 20 years ago!
It bodes well for my retirement maybe 5 years from now. Finally, when someone calls with some old FoxPro, COBOL, RPG2, or aging hardware job - I am going to say "Sure!", and then bill them up the proverbial whazoo for all the years I prostituted myself to keep the incoming coming in.
...then I am moving to Aruba. See you on the beach - please bring a strawberry daiquiri for me.
October 22, 2010 at 6:38 am
I have found, at least in the company I am in now, that experience is actually valued. I am a DBA working in a production support role and in that kind of situation, it's good to have someone who has had experience in a crisis.
I recall we had a large project going and had hired a few contractors to help out, most of them were in their early twenties. There was one hot-shot who was keen to boast about his geeky skills. When the big night came to roll into production, he was so stressed he couldn't do his tasks. I had to step in and do them for him, while keeping up with my own. Did age and experience make me more efficient? You bet it did. I have been in many situations that taught me how to be cool under pressure. 😎
When I get on a plane, a little gray hair on the pilot does my heart good.
I think a wise manager will realize that you need both youth and experience. A manager who doesn't know that is a manager I wouldn't want to work for.
October 22, 2010 at 6:44 am
There is a very key difference between 'efficient' and 'effective'.
No doubt, younger programmers tend to be more efficient than 'older' programmers (measured by things like 'lines of code per day'). But what gets produced? How many times does the reuslt have to be changed / enhanced to meet the customer's needs and expectations? Do 'younger' programmers yet have a framework to truly understand what the customer needs? Can they simutaneously focus on what the customer will experience with the result - the elegance and aesthetics (do they even know what that means, or do they care)?
Steven Covey's 'habits' include "you have to see the forest and the trees". Young programmers see the trees. Managers see the forest (sometimes). A really good, experienced (often 'old') analyst-programmer sees both, and crafts elegant solutions that really work, enhance the customer's life, and survive time.
I am 60, gray, and have four grandchildren. I have been in IT for over 35 years, starting as a programmer, 'moving up' to systems analysis, then to management, and finally running my own companies. I am now an independent consultant, doing well and loving what I do every day (except that 'work' gets in the way of seeing my kids and grandkids).
I could write a book on this subject. The takeaway would be this - if I need someone to develop a solution, give me an old bastard who has been around the block too often to count, understands business and people and return on investment, has reasonably current technical skills, really gives a damn about the result, and still loves this profession. It may not be as 'efficient', but it will be considerably more 'effective'.
Joe Lewis, CT USA
October 22, 2010 at 7:21 am
I started out 32 1/2 years ago with training as a mainframe programmer on a Honeywell 6000 in the Air Force.
I've been through so many different languages and hardware I won't even bother trying to list them all.
My observations are:
1. "Languages" change frequently and every 2-5 years there will be a new "in" language that will be the hot hiring topic.
2. Virtually all of these changes wil be driven by whichever software company has the best marketing department, not by who has the best overall solution.
3. Concepts remain. If you can't program worth a darn in the current "in" language, you won't be worth a darn in the new one.
4. It is easier to get peer support on languages now because of the internet.
5. It is easier to encounter really bad programming because of the internet.
6. Software, languanges, and DBMSs that used to cost thousands to millions for their functionality now are given away. (Sketchup, Visual Studio Express, and SQL Server Express are all excellent examples.)
7. If your not into "continuous learning" your not qualified to be a developer, DBA, analysts, or about any other position in IT.
8. It gets harder as you get older, not because you can't adapt, but because you are always trying to use old methodologies that just don't fit or are unneccessary with modern software and languages. In short, you have so many different ways you did it in the past it's better to just chuck them all and see how "the new kids" are doing it. I offer "set based" as an example. I determinedly tried to prove it would work in two very difficult situations. I was shocked when it did. (Although it still seems a bit like black magic to me...)
9. Users are still users 32+ years later. They still want what they want, yesterday, and will never understand how difficult it may have been too achieve, nor do they care...
10. It can still be a lot of fun. And, if your in it for the fun, the money will come...
October 22, 2010 at 7:21 am
In my "second" career (retirement from military was first) I was CTO for an insurance company for over 9 years when a new General Manager asked me to leave (about 10 years ago). At that time I decided that I enjoyed database development much more than hiring/firing, writing performance evals, budgets, etc. Since then I have concentrated on making my SQL Server skill set so valuable that my employers actually want me -- and my two previous employers still want me to come back.
When I accepted my current job (3+ years ago) I told my current boss and the CTO that I had no desire to take their jobs -- that I just wanted to be the SQL Server guru. They have let me do that, and I look forward to going to work every day.
Even though I am on Medicare I am still getting headhunter inquires weekly. I intend to work full time for another year and then I hope to "taper" off into retirement with either teaching or mentoring (and some part-time consulting) database work.
So, from my point of view, yes there is age discrimination (mainly in the employer perception that "experienced" employees cost more (my response to that is you get what you pay for) and getting your foot in the door for a new position), but to date my employers have been happy with my production and I am happy with my role and compensation.
Mike Byrd
October 22, 2010 at 7:34 am
Hey Steve
I haven't read the other replies above yet, but will. I'll be 49 tomorrow and in IT 27 years as of this month. The change of the nature of business since the 80s makes it difficult to remain in a position as a programmer for too long. Everything is project driven. Either the project is done or runs out of money and you look for the next slot to support your family. In your 20s you don't think much about this. You just use it as an opportunity to increase your salary. There is a ceiling that you'll have a difficult time crossing after a while as you become expensive. Yeah you're worth it especially as you gain experience.
I made a switch to being a DBA over 3 years ago (which I had been trying to do since the mid-90s. No experience, no go especially if you didn't have certain clearances.) I have found that although the job market is dreadful and no place is safe. But, being a DBA gives you staying power as projects may be finished and production teams broken up and generally removed, applications remain along with those who administer them.
As you get older you start thinking of things like retirement, stagnation, the baggage that comes with age - high price tag, insurance for the family, constraints on relocation. You need a place you can hang with for extended periods. When you get into your late 40s, 50s, 60s, will companies start treating techies like any other job? We're old and expensive. Young folks can be brought in much cheaper and be molded to the organizational culture. You have to start thinking of moving upward. Is it too late to do so? You know every organization is looking for ways to cut costs. You better find a way to either gain staying power by being an SME or moving up the chain or enjoying a mobile life. That's hard to do with family.
So, is there age discrimination? I believe so in every field. I look around me at every job and every customer site. The folks I work with in IT and GIS are on average 20-25 years younger. I know they generally make a third of what I make. I know I'm walking on thin ice as long as I stay at a back office IT position. I'm happy to work with T-SQL, scripting languages and doing some .NET development for my own purposes - non-project oriented coding. It keeps my programming Jones alive and working with DBs that I love working with so much. But, I also know its time to look upward. Deadwood will be toss into the street. Yes it exists and I can feel it.
October 22, 2010 at 7:39 am
I also have a mantra for staying alive in IT, "Never stop learning." 😉
October 22, 2010 at 7:47 am
I figured I'd give a younger person's opinion.
I'm only just starting my career in IT, but I already see a change in the way I code now versus some of the projects I've done in college. From what I can tell, this change is going to continue throughout my career. I also recognize that my coworkers have more experience then me and can therefore provide some insight into better ways to do things. I wouldn't want to work in an environment where all the developers are the same age as me - there would be too much of a knowledge gap, too much that we didn't know.
October 22, 2010 at 7:51 am
improve on the basics you learned in college and throw everything else out the door 😉 IT is in a constant flux of change. read up on and constantly apply best practices. the business world wants things done fast and cheap. quality work done efficiently will keep you around as you'll save your org money. its all about the bottom line.
October 22, 2010 at 7:52 am
Bravo!
I couldn't agree with you more. I started in this industry as a collateral duty in the Marines in 1977 let's see:
/*------------------------
select 2010-1977
------------------------*/
-----------
33
(1 row(s) affected)
Guess that means I'm probably older than you. Doesn't mean a bit of difference at the end of the day. It's what we produce that counts.
Ran across something this morning with a product from IBM called Maximo that highlights your bullets about the Internet and shows how out-sourcing can cause a problem.
Problems that are not because of the skills of the outsource but because of their experience. Experience in the field or inside the customer's environment.
A lot of development has been out-sourced to "lower cost" solutions. That means that even the lower cost labor has to make due with single machines housing their database and web or application server so there's lower cost overhead. That leaves out the network, potential lost packets and the like. This product has a host of people reporting over the past several years that the Maximo algorithm of "Open a transaction and wait for something to happen.... forever" can cause problems and orphaned threads. The developers haven't changed anything with the algorithm because it doesn't happen in their environment. Don't mean to pick on IBM here but in the 80's and 90's this would have never passed muster. Even "Big Blue" has learned the MBA maxim of lowering cost = increase value for shareholders. Too bad it doesn't mean better value for the customer. The old saying that too much over-head was an indication of too little under-hat. But everything in moderation eh?
One thing Age brings is experience with these things. If we learn from the experience we can bring value that our young counterparts may not yet have.
October 22, 2010 at 8:07 am
Patterns that work are reinforced and become easier to implement as well as estimate. That turns into efficiency because projects can be accurately accounted/managed.
Experience of failed projects makes them easier to identify before huge investment. If a project is doomed from the start, it's much more efficient to prove negative ROI and kill the project early than blaze ahead and be killed BY it.
The more comfortable we are with our current skills and environment, the farther ahead and wider afield we should be able to see. That hopefully makes us more efficient because we can make better plans.
October 22, 2010 at 8:09 am
"Even "Big Blue" has learned the MBA maxim of lowering cost = increase value for shareholders. Too bad it doesn't mean better value for the customer. The old saying that too much over-head was an indication of too little under-hat. But everything in moderation eh?
One thing Age brings is experience with these things. If we learn from the experience we can bring value that our young counterparts may not yet have."
damn straight! unfortunately, a majority of orgs and managers does see it that way. key is to find a place that knows that making the customer happy means repeat business - lower costs and you don't have spend as much marketing and courting prospects. but then, those that cut the bait and fish generate the funds to decide how to fish. which in turns generates prolonged arrogance leading to marketing blindness.
October 22, 2010 at 8:21 am
I guess I can count myself lucky that I have never experienced ageism in this industry. I suspect that's because of the nature of my career. I never started programming for money until I was 40. I had no trouble breaking in because I was well known via my involvement in a couple of user groups. Since then, I've only ever worked for people that actively recruited me because of my reputation or what they knew about me personally. Now I'm in my mid-50s and things are still going well.
As far as age differences between manager and worker, I've been on both sides of the divide, although not every experience was in this industry. I've found that managing younger workers is easy, because all you have to do is show them some respect, let them make some decisions even if you suspect a mistake in the works, and honestly review their work in a non-confrontational manner. Guess what? That's exactly the same thing that works when you have to manage someone that is older or has more experience. I've never found that having a younger or less experienced manager was a problem either. I assume that they're in charge because they've earned it and then I let my work speak for itself. The only time I've ever found that wasn't good enough was when the manager was useless, and that's not an age thing.
As to youthful enthusiasm, 'aged' wisdom, working for a paycheque, increasing family responsibilities, becoming set in your ways: That's life. I challenge you to find any industry where those things aren't standard concerns. The young welder has learned all kinds of new techniques using all kinds of new technologies and the old guy has to play catch up, but the youngster over-paces himself and ultimately gets less done through fatigue-induced error.
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