October 21, 2010 at 9:17 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Efficiency
October 21, 2010 at 11:45 pm
I have noticed the same, on me but on others.
As a developer, you can't but notice the enthusiasm of youth and the get the work done approach of a an older one. The most simple change, that happens almost to everyone is family and kids.
Here in Greece man get married around 32-35. All my colleagues that were already married, or got married while we worked together had an obvious difference, regardless of how good programmers had been in the past. The all had another priority in life. Their kids. After a certain point, they couldn't care less, as long as they would get paid to support their family, and they would get home to be their children.
I'm not married, I do not have children but the difference at least in Greece and with various collegues of mine could not go unnoticed.
October 21, 2010 at 11:56 pm
I have been sidelined and unable to reenter the market. I am 51.
It doesn't help that I think .net is the wrong direction, it takes a lot of code to achieve anything.
I'd rather solve business problems and generate code... or leave it to those who have the enthusiasm for it I once had.
October 22, 2010 at 12:34 am
I have 26 years experience within IT - SQL is now my "third age" having been a COBOL programmer and a mainframe (Burroughs/Unisys) DBA working on their DMSII Database.What has developed over the years alongside the purely technical skills are the so-called "soft" skills such as interacting with management and end users and problem solving - I work as hard as I have ever done and am at present commencing a SQL2008 R2 upgrade project (having just completed the sql2000 to 2005 project)
Having said that - and going off topic - I will take issue with Steve's casual dismissal of age discrimination as somthing that "just happens" - I remember seeing a job add (back in 2003) in the UK' trade paper "Computer Weekly" asking for a skilled SQL DBA but adding "applicants over 35 need not apply" - can you imagine the outrage if instad of age it said women or blacks or gays ?
I also think that this is more endemic in this industry , and I have a theory why .
A lot of IT managers were at one time programmers etc but have moved into management either becuse they wern't very good or felt they couldn't keep pace with change - so they convince themselves that frontline IT work is a "young mans job" and they've done the smart thing by getting out why they can.Then when interviewing for a new position they come across someone older than them that has remained in frontline IT and by his/her presense highlights their lack of ability - so they then go for the younger hire regardless in order to still justify their own career move
October 22, 2010 at 12:58 am
As time passes I find that my efficiency has improved when considering the whole SDLC. Many developers can churn out more code and quicker. Once you take into account defects discovered and the time to change code to cater for new requirements I tend to find that I am quicker then the inexperienced keyboard jockeys. I once was a churn out lower (hopefully never poor) quality code.
Hare and tortoise? Maybe.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
October 22, 2010 at 1:37 am
I agree that there is a substantial amount of this activity going on and I would not want to be still doing the same thing at 60 that I was at 25, I don't see the progression in this for me or my client. IT is my second career (post military) so even though I am not just out of college, I've only 14 years industry experience on the infrastructure side of IT.
So where does age/experience contribute to IT. As was stated by SSC the soft skills of management and training. I continue to encounter technicians with 5-8 years experience that in responding to an assistance call, will not contact the client and if they resolve an issue will not let the client know it has been worked. The issue here is that the frequency I am seeing this is increasing.
I chose this example of a fundamental concept of customer service, but there are others directly technical in nature. In one case, the 5 year veteran technician renamed a domain controller in the same fashion you would a PC. It earned a 24 hour downtime for the company due to a corrupt AD store simply because the procedure was not checked and "anyone knows how to rename a computer," right.
Age does not always directly relate to efficiency (you need to study and constantly add knowledge for efficiency), but it frequent relates to quality and stability. These qualities reduce risk, increase uptime, and add value.
October 22, 2010 at 1:51 am
giaks0wn (10/22/2010)
I agree that there is a substantial amount of this activity going on and I would not want to be still doing the same thing at 60 that I was at 25, I don't see the progression in this for me or my client. IT is my second career (post military) so even though I am not just out of college, I've only 14 years industry experience on the infrastructure side of IT.So where does age/experience contribute to IT. As was stated by SSC the soft skills of management and training. I continue to encounter technicians with 5-8 years experience that in responding to an assistance call, will not contact the client and if they resolve an issue will not let the client know it has been worked. The issue here is that the frequency I am seeing this is increasing.
I chose this example of a fundamental concept of customer service, but there are others directly technical in nature. In one case, the 5 year veteran technician renamed a domain controller in the same fashion you would a PC. It earned a 24 hour downtime for the company due to a corrupt AD store simply because the procedure was not checked and "anyone knows how to rename a computer," right.
Age does not always directly relate to efficiency (you need to study and constantly add knowledge for efficiency), but it frequent relates to quality and stability. These qualities reduce risk, increase uptime, and add value.
I have always followed the following (clichéd) rules:
1) Never touch production.
2) See rule 1.
3) Well, if you have to then do it slowly and preferably after running it by someone else you trust.
4) Remember that production is there for other people.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
October 22, 2010 at 2:13 am
I'm finding myself less interested in learning new programming tech as I get older. I've been working in IT for 16 years now, the last 7 of which have been mostly using T-SQL with a bit of MS tech (VB, VBA etc) as well. I'm more interested in the design side of things now. I'd rather someone else did all the tedious typing nonsense!
October 22, 2010 at 2:30 am
I have been in the industry for over 20 years and I still love making/fixing 'things' as much now as I did when I started. The change in me as been to listen to others more and not be so arrogant as to think I am always right. I still enjoy learning but in my work most of what I do is down to experience not the latest thing.
When I was in my early twenties a senior developer said to me:
Experience comes from good judgement.
Good judgement comes from bad judgement.
So trick is to learn from mistakes, no necessarily your own.
October 22, 2010 at 2:33 am
These days it is made easy to produce "something" really quick and thus cost efficient at first glance. The problem is that without common sense and care for details, what is produced is not working as intended and often does not work at all (bugs upon bugs). I have seen this with many less experienced developers and even today it still does surprise me. It is as if many are blind to the obvious and only have a course idea of what is intended to make work. Usually specs are no more then a drawing and some oneliners, and it is up to the developer to digg deeper and ask the right questions to form a complete mental picture. Common sense can fill in most of the mundane blanks, experience on a subject even a little more. Apparently both qualities are scrace with inexperienced people.
Usually it means that in the background I had to make things structured and kill bugs next to doing my own work which was of much higher quality to start with. Still I got comments about my pace of work being so slow, it is hard if you are the only one in your environment that can see. The one eyed in a blind world is not king as they use to say, but handicapped due to being misunderstood.
All that said, if one measures performance by output that is accepted by the customer then from a financial standpoint the one producing the most is more desired. Regardless of quality and especially if you can pay the person less wage. In the long run however I still think quality on top of what is accepted, does matter. It means less issues with working systems and likely more orders, which can be more valuable. Software development is not like many other jobs, it is much less then a factory and less repeating in nature, but if only all management was aware of this.
Personally I go for quality over quantity any day, within reason of course.
October 22, 2010 at 2:47 am
I'm over forty now and am much more efficient but not as fast. It reminds me of one of the stories in the book, "Seven habits of effective people" where the manager was sent into the forest to cut trees. He quickly got his crew, saws and equipment out and began cutting full blast only to find out later that he was in the wrong forest.
I take the time to think things through and look for the big picture first and this has saved me many hours/days/weeks on projects. I also now look for advice and mentors that may have more resources and different areas of expertis when needed rather than try to do everything myself. I no longer have anything to prove. My managers/directors get frustrated some times with how long it takes me to begin a project but they know it will be successful if I'm given the resources that I need.
'nix
October 22, 2010 at 2:49 am
I think without a doubt that "overt" age discrimination does exist, but it takea a form something like this:
Employers like programmers in their 20's - they are generally (especially at the moment) grateful to have any job, don't have families and will work long hours to get experience and get ahead.
Once you hit your thirties, people in general tend to get married/have kids and have other priorities. They also have more experience and confidence, and are willing to speak up if they think something is not being done the right way on a project. It is this second point that is particuarly unwelcome in my experience.
Some managers says in their 30's also see a 50 + techie with 20-30 years experience as a threat to their own authority. They've seen it all, good and bad and sadly a minority of managers do not want someone like that on their team. The manager wants to be seen as the fount of all knowledge.
However, this is not universal and there are many enlightened younger managers out there who value both the wisdom of age and the enthusiasm of youth.....
October 22, 2010 at 2:52 am
I have always agreed with the idea that those who can't program go into management (or better still, become business analysts). My suspicion is that older coders are being sidelined because the young managers feel uncomfortable being in charge of somebody older than their dad - especially in small teams. There is also that nagging feeling in the manager's head that this old guy is looking at him askance because he also knows the project is heading for the buffers. Ironically, you only know that age makes no difference when you're older.
Interestingly, I also sell a few software packages which include optional on-site customisation, and the response is totally different. Perhaps it is because there won't be that intimate master/servant relationship with the supplier as there is with the in-house coder.
October 22, 2010 at 3:18 am
There are absolutely some young department level managers that see older coders or technicians as a threat and rightfully so. Another poster indicated that the experience and knowledge they gained make them more vocal about highlighting directions which are high risk or doomed to fail.
Could anyone be comfortable about having someone with unquestionably higher technical skill sounding alarms about the direction they want to take a project? If the manager's boss hears the "dissenters" and starts questioning the project where will the manager be left - holding the bag for not listening to his technician's warnings. But, they are a threat only if the manager does not understand how to handle the dissenter, like an comic handles a heckler. The manager needs and wants quiet loyalty which he may get if he empathizes with his staff while communicating the risks to management. Maybe the risks the technicians are highlighting are acceptable to be scheduled in a second phase of development.
October 22, 2010 at 5:09 am
geoffrey.sturdy (10/22/2010)
A lot of IT managers were at one time programmers etc but have moved into management either becuse they wern't very good or felt they couldn't keep pace with change - so they convince themselves that frontline IT work is a "young mans job" and they've done the smart thing by getting out why they can.Then when interviewing for a new position they come across someone older than them that has remained in frontline IT and by his/her presense highlights their lack of ability - so they then go for the younger hire regardless in order to still justify their own career move
I so agree (in modern parlance) with this comment.
I have found that being older increases efficiency (but not good spelling) because:
* experience of different situations, solutions and problem fixes mean you can eliminate a lot of dead ends at the start. This applies to analysis and coding - I am the quickest coder in our department and 13+ years older than the others. But I also think 'speed' is an individual thing, and not the most important at that.
* enjoy learning new languages, technologies and client situations as much as I ever did in my 20s
* freed from the worry of scaling the peaks / breaking glass ceilings (ie proving myself) because I like having a 'life' outside work too
* appreciate and can work in an informal team environment where everyone pitches in and specs... sorry... what spec?
* know better than try to 'stick it out' in a job where I am unhappy and/or don't fit the team/company
All of the above, doesn't mean that I don't make mistakes any more, but that I make less of them, and can fix/spot mistakes quicker (and assess the impact better) than when I was younger.
When I applied for my current position I was told, in respect to another job, that I did not have the 'right age profile'. This actually made me furious and focussed me on my application for this position, so perhaps it was a help after all.
So I do not feel that 40+ is 'too old' to code, or means I am slower, or that I can't learn new languages - afer all, we are all different. At the end of the day, I take the view that those managers who have this view are losing out. With the current pensions crisis I expect I'll still be programming into my 70s...
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