Editor in Chief
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Editor in ChiefLast week when we announced the sale of the site to Red Gate Software, Andy, Brian, and myself were rather nervous. We have been working for some time on negotiating this sale with Red Gate and we early on felt that they really had the best interests of the community at heart or we would not have sold. However we knew that this would be a shock to many people and of concern to some. If you've read through the forums and around the Internet, you might have seen that some people are very concerned about having a vendor run a formerly independent community.
And that concerned us. Not because we think Red Gate will do something crazy, but because we thought it was a coin flip as to how the community would react. We thought that most people would be happy for us, but they could just have easily been angry at us. We'd hoped to be able to announce it the week before PASS and guage the reaction so we would be prepared at our reception. As it turned out, everyone was great and willing to give Red Gate the benefit of the doubt that they had no ulterior motive.
This week I've had one of the Red Gate IT team in Denver working with me on the site so I can turn over some of the, ah, less enjoyable administative portions of my job. On Tuesday we were chatting and he pointed out Phil Factor's blog on the sale and editorial independence. If you haven't read it, it's an interesting perspective and balances Brian Lockwood's concerns as a competing vendor.
So in searching for a Friday poll, I thought I'd do what I often do and ask the community.
How independent should we be?
Or maybe more importantly, how can we be independent. I've only had some preliminary discussions with Red Gate about how to make this a better community, but everyone I've talked to, from the owners to the directors have stressed independence and no one has tried to tell me what to write. Actually I'll probably get some comments about linking to some of the items above, but I've always written what I want, so I'll stick to that.
I'm really curious to see what you'd like. Or what you think I can do to run this community and remain unbiased, but meet your needs. We are planning to pull advertising, at least most of the ones on the site and most of the ones in the newsletter. I'm not sure if that's a good idea because I think it's important for you to be able to find and learn about third party tools and it's important for vendors to be able to inform you of their new products. It's the plan for now, however, to reduce the amount of stuff that gets in the way of you learning about SQL Server.
So if you don't mind, respond to this and let me know what you think is a good way to meet the needs of the community and remain an independent member of the SQL Server community.
Steve Jones
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In Red Gate's defense, I received an email through the blogs interface from Simon Galbraith (Joint CEO of Red Gate), asking how to address some of the concerns I cited in my recent blog post. I'm still trying to formulate my thoughts as I only read it a couple of hours ago, but I like the fact that Red Gate is asking the question on how to keep the community vibrant, with an independent voice.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley -
To deal with the advertising issue and demonstrate true independence, create a dedicated advertising newsletter in which anyone can promote their SQL tools. The main site remains uncluttered if this is the aim, Red gate maintain their exclusive branding on the site, but the community is served in having a source of information available to those who want it. As this is an opt-in, rates would need to be low but, as this is just a service to the community, it only needs to break even. That would show true independence and could go some way to refuting Mr Lockwood's concerns.
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You should be as independent as you were before the sale. Naivety aside, that's the simple answer.
I've never had a problem with the advertising, because it's so well focussed. I don't mind seeing that continue, but obviously only if everyone gets a fair chance to advertise, and that's unlikely, right?
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To be honest, I'm happy the way things used to be and am still happy the way they are now, so what if RedGate now own the site, so long as they're not dictating terms every 5 mins and let people continue the way they always have then that's what's going to help the community stay vibrant.
There's not many places that I know I can take a problem at the level i need it addressing at and know that there's people out there that have either done it before or have read an article that I havent and point the way to the solution.
In the end it makes no difference to me who owns the company, all that is important is that the quality of the site remains the same.
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Steve, thanks for referring to my Blog entry. As you know, I've done quite a bit of writing for Simple-Talk, but I have no financial interest in Red-Gate whatsoever. I have been paid the standard rate for my articles but nothing for my blogs! I am what the site describes me as: a 'Guest Blogger'.
I work as a Database developer mostly, though I've done a lot of different things over the years. In my day-to-day work with SQL Server, I use a range of tools, including Red-Gate's SQL Bundle and SQL Backup. I also use, and trust, tools by EMS, Apex, and others.
I write about things that amuse or interest me. I enjoy writing for Simple-Talk because I can choose to tackle subjects that will generally make editors wince, in the confidence that there will be no restriction on what I can write or the opinions I can express. And I like provoking reasoned discussion.
I have no more insight into the marketing strategy of Red-Gate than any other 'outsider', but I know that whatever is done will be undertaken with integrity. If you have any concerns, why not just ask them: That's what I do.
I think that almost everyone wants to make the new arrangement at SSC work well for all interested parties.
Best wishes,
Phil Factor -
My usage of this site and community is largely concerned with SQL Server matters which do not refer to any third party tools at all. This to me is the true value of the site and as long as I continue to learn from it I will continue to use it.
It seems that you have only a few areas outside the normal site focus where you could be compromised.
1. Reviews
2. Advertising
3. Forum discussions
1.
Either get independant contributors to do them and continue to do them for all relevant products or just don't do them at all.
2.
Again either as is. Add free. Monthly mails as current. Something with balance.
Personally they have given me an awareness of the market but if I want to buy a backup tool etc. I will Google for competitors before I buy anything.
3.
Don't censure them. People will notice and it will generate a lot of bad will. Without contributors the forums are useless.
I think the point made about advertisers having access to the site is valid but the reason the site is a success is not because of balanced advertising. I visit for content not advertising. I think most other users are the same.
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Hi Steve, belated congrats on your windfall.
I've been following the debate from a distance this time but considering you did request responses...
I appreciate that you are trying to appear "Master-in-Chief" of the site and in no way am I questioning RG's motivations (although previous threads have alluded to some) but I struggle to see how you will be able to maintain the independence of the site. Phil Factor's article reflects the exception and not the rule and the reason for that is people generally like having steady remuneration.
Like others, I'm waiting to see what will happen in '07 but this could be put on a par with hotmail's sale to MS and those advantages are still vague.
Something that would provide ease of mind to some would be the inclusion of a list of all comparable SQL Tools, with full technical reviews and pricing. Surely if a company is aiming to be market leader in the technical services arena it should be based on technical proficiency and allow the product to speak for itself?
Good luck!
Max
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As to how independent should you be, how independent can you be. I'm not talking about Red Gate, I'm talking about Microsoft. Personally, where Microsoft leads, I follow. Not because I've got some faith in the company, its leadership or their products, but because they've, indirectly, paid me a lot of money over the years. So, I critique them but I follow along behind them none the less.
I suspect you'll be as independent as you can be. Some may see that as comprimised and others will be more realistic. I guess the occasional critical comment or review of Red Gate will probably be enough to demonstrate that editorial policy is not slanted their way. At some point, certainly not currently, they'll come out with some totally boneheaded product which will richly deserve a fierce beating about the face & neck. Don't hold back. I don't think much more can be asked of you.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore RooseveltAuthor of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning -
As a new comer to this site I didn't feel it was necessary to make any comment either way on the issue of the sale or the possible ramifications to editorial independence. However one thought struck me at the time and I thought it might be worth raising. As a new user of SQL Server I did extensive research into the product before deciding that this was the right one for me. I read articles and books, talked to friends, colleagues and acquaintances and generally did my homework; I’m a thorough type of person and probably no different to 99.9% of people in the IT industry when it comes to looking for solutions to business needs. Advertising does sway our choices evidenced by the fact that companies are willing to spend money on it. However, if we are doing our jobs properly we should make informed choices and that behooves us to look at more than one source for our information. If people fail to make the correct decisions when they buy a product that supports their business requirements then they and their business are at a disadvantage, a disadvantage that others will be more than happy to exploit.
In a free market there will always be an outlet for advertising £'s. If Red Gate were to close the doors on competitors advertising or remove editorial independence it would only be a matter of time before an outlet was found for that money and copy. The fate of many a Goliath is to be slain by a David of his own making.
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I don't really care about adverts - I usually just ignore them and focus on the content.
What I do care about is the articles people post, and whether this will be censored. For example, I found a nice tool from Quest on which I have been planning to write a review article. Will I be allowed to publish this article?
If it is published (assuming of course it is of a high enough standard), and receives the same publicity it would in the past, then I am satisfied Red-Gate has allowed editorial freedom.
Until then, I will keep my options open and give the team the benefit of the doubt. Don't cry wolf...
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Interesting thread and kudos for posting the reference to Brian's and Phil's blogs. Phil's points on the reality of editorial freedom is right on point - I have experienced this first hand as a vendor/advertiser and have had it work both for and against me.
The level of your independence is yet to be determined - regardless of the reality, the perception of the community - will be the reality, and that will vary by individual and as time and circumstance dictate. As long as I derive value (and sometimes entertainment) from this resource, I will be a regular visitor.
One area that you may consider (that I have not found elsewhere) is a compendium of available products from any source along with any reviews (direct and linked) that might be available. Any vendor could post product information within reasonable guidelines and anyone could link reviews and write feedback on them. Ideally the products are categorized and searchable within this area - something 'Wiki-like' that allows the vendors the maintain the basic product info and others to submit user experience, questions, feedback, etc. If something like this already exists, I would appreciate a link to it.
Currently, I do the usual Google search of certain keywords, check a few known sites to find products that have features I need then begin looking for independent reviews. If the vendor has an online support forum that is always one of my first stops. Still, finding and evaluating products is very time consuming - anything that can serve as repository would be a valuable resource to the community.
Best wishes for the holidays and continued success with this site.
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I agree with your comments Karma, just as buying a car, the responsibility is your own.
Without getting philosophical though, a lot of our reality is constructed for us and even if one has the confidence to decide that something is not as it should be; what is that founded on and what can be done to change it?
Advertising (and in this case the potential for the corrosion of impartiality) aims to skewer our perspective on things. Not all re advertising is bad, of course. I have no animosity to those in advertising; they're only trying to succeed in their industry. Before one makes clear the responsibility of a consumer though one should make clear the responsibility of the supplier, in an ideal world that is.
RG have put in a half-harted effort to assure us of their intentions but they have no responsibility to make clear all of them and in particular enter into a contract with us as to what exactly they intend to do with our contact details and contributions (intellectual property we submitted under the auspices of SSC).
In these and other respects a lot of people feel disappointed in SSC - it's not just about independence and impartiality. RG have bought SSC (and not as minority investor) and they will do with it as they please.
Still I wish to use the site and hope none of my somewhat-paranoid-delusions materialise.
Max
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Thanks for the comments and I definitely have some things to think about.
I'd like to see more reviews, but they're tough to do. The only way I can be sure they're not being "gamed" by the vendor (paying an author to say something, writing themselves as a psuedonym, etc.) is to do them myself.
However then I get into the place where I'm not sure I'm completely qualified to review all products. I don't have a heavily stressed environment, for example, so for my purposes, all the backup products would probably test well. However in a 4TB environment, they might not. Or I might not like the way a particular product does a job and it would show in my review, but then I might not be using it well and unnecessarily "trash" the product.
I've given reviews a lot of thought over the years and that's one reason I don't write them. Right or wrong (probably wrong), people seemt to give my words more weight than they deserve. I don't want to negatively impact sales for someone with an ill-written word.
Some of the other comments are great and I'll see about taking some of these into account. I do think advertising plays a good part in the community, if nothing else if gives you awareness. I'm still working on a plan to suggest to Red Gate for next year on this.
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Steve,
First - I appreciate the openness (and the link!). Steve and I have gone a few rounds in the past 5 years but in the last 6 mos. SSC and ApexSQL (Steve, Kevin and myself) really seemed to be in a good groove and 2007 was looking to be a good year of collaboration. I haven't always agreed with Steve but we managed to hash things out and I felt he was at least advocating for his site - not another vendor. Our biggest incident was my complaining about Red-Gate several years ago on reviews. We got thru it although it left an indelible impression on me as to the influence Red-Gate was trying to wield on the site. To SSC's credit they managed to stiff arm Red-Gate on the majority of these attempts - most notable was the offer to pay the site to displace competive ads. This was courageous since I know SSC wasn't rolling in green at the time and could have used the windfall - it would have been real easy to take this deal and outside of SSC, Red-Gate, myself and a few other vendors no one would have known. Not sure who was involved in the decision, what the vote was etc - but the end result was that they erred on the side of ethics. Those are actions, not words - and they mean a lot.
As a side note - my biggest thrill on this site was the occaisonal time when Steve stuck it to Microsoft (i.e. why upgrade to SQL 2005?). I think I sent him congratulatory emails each time!
So Steve has an estabilished pedigree of independence.But now - it's a different world. I'm going to try and keep Steve out of my gunsights as he's not the protagonist here. And I hope he doesn't get caught up in the cross fire. My advice bro - the same as they told me in the Army "keep your head down until the Boom Boom stops".
Having said that, I wanted to comment on some things Steve said
As to your comment "As it turned out, everyone was great and willing to give Red Gate the benefit of the doubt that they had no ulterior motive. " I'm not sure about your study group but Sean McCown says almost exactly the opposite from his stint at PASS
"Red-Gate says they intend to keep it as a community site and grow it as much as they can. However, they also plan to use the membership list. I didn't ask for what purpose, because why would I? We all know they're talking about marketing. And I suppose that's their right because they bought the site, but I know they're going to lose a lot of users over it. People don't want to be cold called by anyone. Without exception, everyone I talked to said that they're worried about how things will change with a vendor in charge. "
Feedback to me is running very strongly against - so I guess it might be who you hang with or what people want to tell you directly. I would say skeptism is growing - now that we know Red-Gate plans to continue to run their newsletter ads (despite removing competitors) and also plans to review their own and competitor tools. I would re-survey these people and ask them again what they think with this addition news/context. It seems the honeymoon is ending for a lot of people.
As for this comment
"We are planning to pull advertising, at least most of the ones on the site and most of the ones in the newsletter. I'm not sure if that's a good idea because I think it's important for you to be able to find and learn about third party tools and it's important for vendors to be able to inform you of their new products."
Well, what Red-Gate has indicated is that the most of ads they plan to pull are competitor ads. And the most of the ads they plan to keep are their own! Funny how it worked out that way.
Tony Davis on Simple-Talk
"Buying SSC was a business decision and Red Gate is looking to make a return on that investment. It's true that, in the SSC newsletter, you will no longer see competitor advertising but will continue to see Red Gate tools. How big of a downside that is will be for the community to decide."
Ahhh - pretty big I would imagine unless of course you are Red-Gate. Even Steve here is publicly expressing his concern that it might not be a good idea. Add his voice to the growing chorus of public and private murmoring about this and I think we're seeing some movement of perspectives on this issue.
anyway - I was gonna give up on this a couple days ago (as I have a real job, kids etc!) but I started getting a lot of calls and emails of support telling me to keep fighting and thanking me for lending a voice to the "resistance". If I'm going to live in North Carolina I guess I gotta have Tar on my Heels. So until I'm totally satisfied (and we're getting farther away from this than closer with recent Red-Gate announcements) I'm going to continue to pound away on this issue. If you feel strongly about independent media as I do - help spread the word.
Brian Lockwood
President
ApexSQL - SQL Developer Essentials
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