February 24, 2013 at 8:29 pm
February 25, 2013 at 6:38 am
What inspired me was family history. I began tracing my family genealogy back in the early 80's and soon had reams of paper filled with data. Knew I couldn't grow to much without being overwhelmed with 3-ring binders, so decided to build a program to house the data. As the genealogy branched and grew, so did the sophistication of my early databases. By the early 90's, I knew more about databases (and my family!) than any else I knew, so changed careers and became a database programmer. Today, everything is on SQL Servers and served up on the web. As databases go, the application is small, but as family genealogies go it's very, very large (over 13,000 entries) and still growing. What started with a 5-volume series of books with 600 pages of genealogies today would span over 5000 pages and could not realistically be published again. Thank goodness for the web!
February 25, 2013 at 10:00 am
bitbucket-25253 (2/23/2013)
I read the previous comments, and except for a very few, posted by us "oldtimers" which bought back memories of my first programming tasks in 1960. (Hard to believe that was some 53 years ago) Using the now ancient IBM 1401 and a language known as "AUTOCODER".
Ron,
The real first code I wrote after absolute was in SPS on a 1620 where we did have variables but had to manage all the registers and locations while dealing with strings. I was familiar with 1401 Autocoder but did not write production code in it. In the 80's I worked with a fellow who wrote the math tables for the Autocoder processor. The stories he told were amazing. One thing I remember was the cost in code it took both in SPS and in Autocoder to write something to disk. There was no SQL and in same cases no index to the data, and before ISAM using the Direct Access Method was costly but at the time a miracle that it could be done.
Thank you for bringing up the 1401. The memories of people and environments are wonderful.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
February 25, 2013 at 10:16 am
Carla Wilson-484785 (2/22/2013)
LOL! Does anyone remember APL, "A Programming Language"? That's what hooked me in 1975, because it was an interactive terminal (keyboard, no CRT) back when all the other computer programming classes at my university were key-punched cards with overnight processing. I used it to write some interactive basic statistics tutorials for the statistics class I had just taken (probability and permutations versus combinations).
Was this the "right to left" execution of instructions for math/stats? I took a language like that in college. Hated it, but then again, I never like matrix math and lots of that was involved in our course.
February 25, 2013 at 10:47 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (2/25/2013)
Carla Wilson-484785 (2/22/2013)
LOL! Does anyone remember APL, "A Programming Language"? That's what hooked me in 1975, because it was an interactive terminal (keyboard, no CRT) back when all the other computer programming classes at my university were key-punched cards with overnight processing. I used it to write some interactive basic statistics tutorials for the statistics class I had just taken (probability and permutations versus combinations).Was this the "right to left" execution of instructions for math/stats? I took a language like that in college. Hated it, but then again, I never like matrix math and lots of that was involved in our course.
Ha! Yes - I had forgotten about that... It was kind of like using pipes in reverse.
February 25, 2013 at 11:01 am
pdanes (2/22/2013)
It's not obsolete if it still does the job it was designed to do. I've written my share of FORTRAN, RPG, COBOL and who knows what else over the years. No idea if any of it is still running somewhere, but if so, great! There are plenty of tasks that need attention, without inventing silly make-work like replacing fully functional existing code.Things are only obsolete if they can no longer perform their assigned function. COBOL does not fit that definition by any stretch of the imagination.
There are shops that develop new applications in COBOL today, and do an enormous amount of useful work. Just because it doesn't fit someone's idea of 'the latest and greatest' doesn't mean it's a bad idea to use it.
I agree, and as long as the thing does not change from what it was originally designed to do, then that is absolutely correct. However, as we all know, systems change over time. New enhancements/functionality are either made or required. That is just technology moving forward. Once those enhancements require a capability not currently in legacy PL's like FORTRAN and COBOL, that is when those systems must be upgraded or converted. Obsolute? No, but maybe in dire need of a 21st century face lift? Maybe.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
February 25, 2013 at 11:08 am
Carla Wilson-484785 (2/22/2013)
LOL! Does anyone remember APL, "A Programming Language"? That's what hooked me in 1975, because it was an interactive terminal (keyboard, no CRT) back when all the other computer programming classes at my university were key-punched cards with overnight processing. I used it to write some interactive basic statistics tutorials for the statistics class I had just taken (probability and permutations versus combinations).
Speaking of interactive, odd languages, I had quite a fascination with Forth. Basically reverse notation stack oriented environment, with a wonderful (dangerous) interaction between interpreter, compiler and application. Statements and functions could be immediate, or could be designated to come into play during compile/interpretation functions. The application could actually modify the interpreter and the compiler during runtime! With great power comes great responsibility.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
February 25, 2013 at 11:44 am
Still a lot of great responses coming in. But I haven't seen a direct response to the fascinating question by Michael Valentine Jones:
Are there any set based languages besides SQL?
These two sound like possible candidates, but I am very curious to hear from people who have more expert knowledge on this topic.
http://readwrite.com/2011/07/01/new-set-based-programming-language-bandicoot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claire_%28programming_language%29
- webrunner
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
February 25, 2013 at 12:59 pm
pdanes (2/22/2013)
It's not obsolete if it still does the job it was designed to do. I've written my share of FORTRAN, RPG, COBOL and who knows what else over the years. No idea if any of it is still running somewhere, but if so, great! There are plenty of tasks that need attention, without inventing silly make-work like replacing fully functional existing code.Things are only obsolete if they can no longer perform their assigned function. COBOL does not fit that definition by any stretch of the imagination.
There are shops that develop new applications in COBOL today, and do an enormous amount of useful work. Just because it doesn't fit someone's idea of 'the latest and greatest' doesn't mean it's a bad idea to use it.
COBOL is obsolete in the same way that VHS tapes, the Latin language, and muzzle loaded rilfes are obsolete. Of course it's still widely in use, and still works the way it was originally intended, just like all those other things.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
February 25, 2013 at 1:11 pm
Eric M Russell (2/25/2013)
COBOL is obsolete in the same way that VHS tapes, the Latin language, and muzzle loaded rilfes are obsolete. Of course it's still widely in use, and still works the way it was originally intended, just like all those other things.
The point remains that there is wisdom in not re-writing an entire application for no other reason than to change the language.
Those who understand this still have COBOL applications working well today.
Those who don't understand it waste time and money re-inventing the wheel. :hehe:
February 25, 2013 at 2:38 pm
Ditto on the TI-99/4a!..and much the same experience as the OP...writing small programs to solve algebra and physics problems. I even bought the Extended Basic cartridge but the cassette interface went out, and I never really got to use it. I still have the console, joysticks, and all the cartridges. I assume it would still work if I plugged it up. Does anyone remember the Scott Adams Adventure games? 🙂
February 25, 2013 at 2:59 pm
Dave62 (2/25/2013)
Eric M Russell (2/25/2013)
COBOL is obsolete in the same way that VHS tapes, the Latin language, and muzzle loaded rilfes are obsolete. Of course it's still widely in use, and still works the way it was originally intended, just like all those other things.The point remains that there is wisdom in not re-writing an entire application for no other reason than to change the language.
Those who understand this still have COBOL applications working well today.
Those who don't understand it waste time and money re-inventing the wheel. :hehe:
Dave,
Would you suggest developing a massive new system that is PC friendly in COBOL?
You see I do not believe COBOL is obsolete, but I do believe that it is "contained" for the most part and that most new development will be in a non-COBOL platform.
Yes I have written COBOL, three mainframe versions and AS-400 to boot. Have not touched it for almost 17 years. And some if it still runs well. But all new is in something else.
M.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
February 26, 2013 at 6:29 am
Miles Neale (2/25/2013)
Dave,Would you suggest developing a massive new system that is PC friendly in COBOL? ...
Definitely not.
I do .NET development and SQL Server development/administration. The last company I worked for had a lot of COBOL running on an AS400. We would leave the COBOL alone as long as it was running fine and didn't need anything new added. As soon as maintenance issues or new features came up we would work on a conversion path.
We had no need, interest, or time to bother with re-writing it just for the sake of changing the language.
February 26, 2013 at 9:54 am
Dave62 (2/26/2013)
Miles Neale (2/25/2013)
Dave,Would you suggest developing a massive new system that is PC friendly in COBOL? ...
Definitely not.
I do .NET development and SQL Server development/administration. The last company I worked for had a lot of COBOL running on an AS400. We would leave the COBOL alone as long as it was running fine and didn't need anything new added. As soon as maintenance issues or new features came up we would work on a conversion path.
We had no need, interest, or time to bother with re-writing it just for the sake of changing the language.
Dave,
I think that you and I are on common ground. Don't fix what isn't broken.
Thanks...
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
February 26, 2013 at 10:25 am
Miles Neale (2/26/2013)
Dave62 (2/26/2013)
Miles Neale (2/25/2013)
Dave,Would you suggest developing a massive new system that is PC friendly in COBOL? ...
Definitely not.
I do .NET development and SQL Server development/administration. The last company I worked for had a lot of COBOL running on an AS400. We would leave the COBOL alone as long as it was running fine and didn't need anything new added. As soon as maintenance issues or new features came up we would work on a conversion path.
We had no need, interest, or time to bother with re-writing it just for the sake of changing the language.
Dave,
I think that you and I are on common ground. Don't fix what isn't broken.
Thanks...
I agree that most of these legacy COBOL processes should be left in place unless there is a return on investment to re-write them. When it comes to batch processing flat files, I guess COBOL is state of the art, if that's the limit of your current data processing needs. For many organizations, going from COBOL to a relational SQL database wouldn't be just an upgrade of programming code, but also an upgrade of the hardware, OS, and staff as well.
Likewise, I've got a 2002 mini-van that was paid for several years back. It gets 15 MPG, drips oil, and one of the sliding doors doesn't work right, but I have no plans to replace it with a new $$,$$$ hybrid until the thing stops running. Especially since I'm not the family member who drives it every day. 😉
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
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