July 30, 2009 at 12:19 am
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2009)[
Tell me, why should a Religious organization be required to hire some one who did not share their beliefs? Your asking to put yourself into what could potentially become a difficult working environment. And who would be to blame for that?
I can understand why government entities and private businesses should not discriminate on the basis of age, race, religion, sex, or nationality. It makes total sense to me, base hiring on once qualifications and fit for the position. There is some chemistry involved. Employers want to hire someone that will work well those already there.
Because they are the best candidate for the job. If my beliefs are different from my co workers it does not (unless other people are particularly disagreeable) affect my ability to do the job, or to get along with people.
If I put myself in a difficult work environment, so be it. I would rather be employed and paying the mortgage in such a job than losing my house without it.
July 30, 2009 at 12:24 am
But are they the best fit for the organization? Most businesses look at more than just an individuals qualifications in making hiring decisions.
July 30, 2009 at 12:28 am
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2009)
mtucker (7/30/2009)
Competence, no; Maturity, quite possibly.
.....
And you can find just as many examples of immature atheists as well. What's your point? religious people don't hold a monoply on immaturity.
the point is that religious faith is not an indicator or maturity, alhough five minutes ago you said you thought it might be (see above)
But it isn't an indicator of immaturity either.
How about age, is that an indicator of maturity? No, but it can be. I have seen extremely mature 20-somethings and extremely immature 60-somethings.
It CAN be an indicator of maturity.
What it really comes down to is getting to know the individual. Just asking someone if they are a believer or strong in their faith is not going to tell you if they are mature. But learning about the person, and then discovering that they have a strong faith in God, work within their church, etc can demonstrate the a person of faith is mature. Which is what Brad was indicating in his observations. That some of the mature DBA's he has know were strong in their faith and worked within their religious organizations.
You are making no sense. An indicator is something that indicates. If religious faith does not necessarily show that a person is mature or immature (as you say), then it is not in any sense an indicator of maturity.
I agree that learning about a person will tell you what they are like (!).
It seems that you now agree that faith is not a sign of competence, or of maturity. But now you say that the article was not making any link between any of those factors, that Brad was mentioning his observations about good DBAs being religious in the same casual way that he might mention that good DBAs often use deodorant.
July 30, 2009 at 12:37 am
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2009)
But are they the best fit for the organization? Most businesses look at more than just an individuals qualifications in making hiring decisions.
They do indeed.
The reason there are anti discrimination laws is to ensure some level of fairness in hiring decisions. It wasnt so long ago that black people were excluded for the very reasons you are putting forward as valid.
Experience has shown that black people are quite capable of fitting in to organisations formerly made up of white people. The common experience of people working together harmoniously in the vast majority of workplaces shows that it does not matter what your beliefs are, different beliefs do not lead to conflict or poor performance.
July 30, 2009 at 12:38 am
No, I'm not saying it isn't an indicator. I still believe that it can be an indicator of maturity, just as age can be an indicator of maturity, or having served in the military can be an indicator of maturity.
Can indicates a possibility. I will not say it IS an indicator. One MUST get to know the individual before making a determination as to ones level of maturity.
July 30, 2009 at 12:41 am
mtucker (7/30/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2009)
But are they the best fit for the organization? Most businesses look at more than just an individuals qualifications in making hiring decisions.They do indeed.
The reason there are anti discrimination laws is to ensure some level of fairness in hiring decisions. It wasnt so long ago that black people were excluded for the very reasons you are putting forward as valid.
Experience has shown that black people are quite capable of fitting in to organisations formerly made up of white people. The common experience of people working together harmoniously in the vast majority of workplaces shows that it does not matter what your beliefs are, different beliefs do not lead to conflict or poor performance.
True, but the courts have held that a religious organization cannot be force to hire someone whose beliefs are opposed to their own.
July 30, 2009 at 12:46 am
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2009)
No, I'm not saying it isn't an indicator. I still believe that it can be an indicator of maturity, just as age can be an indicator of maturity, or having served in the military can be an indicator of maturity.Can indicates a possibility. I will not say it IS an indicator. One MUST get to know the individual before making a determination as to ones level of maturity.
Either it is a good indicator of maturity or it isnt. If you make your judgement based on other factors, then those other factors are the indicators.
The fact is that there are personalities of every type who are religious, people with every level of ability, maturity,competence and criminality. Because of this you cannot reliably use religious faith as an indicator of anything other than religious faith.
July 30, 2009 at 12:46 am
And in that same vein, if I owned a business that had an office in Dubai, or Saudia Arabia and I was down to two qualified candidates for the top Director position that would work closely with the local government, and choose the less qualified male over a more qualified female, I would be justified in the hiring decision due to the culture of the assignment. I would be in deep trouble, however, with the same decision if the position were in Germany or the US.
This is the same logic used by the courts with regard to religious organizations.
July 30, 2009 at 12:51 am
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2009)
mtucker (7/30/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2009)
But are they the best fit for the organization? Most businesses look at more than just an individuals qualifications in making hiring decisions.They do indeed.
The reason there are anti discrimination laws is to ensure some level of fairness in hiring decisions. It wasnt so long ago that black people were excluded for the very reasons you are putting forward as valid.
Experience has shown that black people are quite capable of fitting in to organisations formerly made up of white people. The common experience of people working together harmoniously in the vast majority of workplaces shows that it does not matter what your beliefs are, different beliefs do not lead to conflict or poor performance.
True, but the courts have held that a religious organization cannot be force to hire someone whose beliefs are opposed to their own.
Courts are about the law, not about what is right and wrong or fair. The courts used to say it was OK to discriminate based on race, and that the punishment for stealing a loaf of bread was hanging.
The fact that your courts say it is OK to discriminate on the basis of faith demonstrates that you do not yet truly have freedom of religion in your country.
July 30, 2009 at 12:53 am
Here is where I show my maturity and simply agree to disagree. Nothing either of us will say is going to sway the other. I believe that ones faith and working within ones religious organization can show a level of maturity. You don't believe that.
Wether I can ask that of a potential hire is a totally different story.
July 30, 2009 at 1:00 am
mtucker (7/30/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2009)
mtucker (7/30/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/30/2009)
But are they the best fit for the organization? Most businesses look at more than just an individuals qualifications in making hiring decisions.They do indeed.
The reason there are anti discrimination laws is to ensure some level of fairness in hiring decisions. It wasnt so long ago that black people were excluded for the very reasons you are putting forward as valid.
Experience has shown that black people are quite capable of fitting in to organisations formerly made up of white people. The common experience of people working together harmoniously in the vast majority of workplaces shows that it does not matter what your beliefs are, different beliefs do not lead to conflict or poor performance.
True, but the courts have held that a religious organization cannot be force to hire someone whose beliefs are opposed to their own.
Courts are about the law, not about what is right and wrong or fair. The courts used to say it was OK to discriminate based on race, and that the punishment for stealing a loaf of bread was hanging.
The fact that your courts say it is OK to discriminate on the basis of faith demonstrates that you do not yet truly have freedom of religion in your country.
Please note that this is restricted. The vast majority of employers are bound by law that prohibits discrimination based on religion. The number of religious organizations is a vast minority in comparision.
July 30, 2009 at 1:28 am
Well since I come from over the border in Not-America, the constitutional arguments pass me by somewhat. It's interesting though to see a long drawn out circular argument on such a preposterous statement as religious faith can be a sign of maturity.
On its own how can it be? Surely, in isolation, it can be no more or less a sign of maturity than having a pulse.
Taking the most deeply religious people I know, the level of maturity amongst them is as one would expect to find within the general populous. Similarly, amongst the most mature and dependable folks I know, a mixture of religious beliefs and zeal can be found amongst them comparable with any other group.
Religious belief or practise has absolutely no bearing on one's level of maturity.
Interestingly, discrimination law tends to prevent people being discriminated against for being religious. Successful cases of people arguing religious discrimination because they aren't religious have as much likelihood of success as Caucasians arguing racial discrimination, or men arguing sexual discrimination, i.e. not much.
Bet the author never expected to be opening a can of worms like this though 🙂
July 30, 2009 at 7:30 am
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
And by the way, Atheism is considered a religion under the First Amendment of the Constitution.Is it? Please provide that definition. Please also note that I operate under a different constitution.
The full range of dictionary definitions exclude atheism as a religion, as does common usage.
A primary standard definition of "atheism" is "the doctrine or belief that there is no God". This is differentiated from "agnosticism", which is "a religious orientation of doubt". Atheism is generally used to refer to the active denial of the existence of diety, while agnosticism is generally used to indicate a lack of belief or a conflicted belief. Atheism covers active denial of God, agnosticism covers "I'm not sure if there is a God".
Under the active definition of atheism, it is treated as a religion by US courts, because it is a system of beliefs and doctrines oriented around the existence of diety, specifically the categorical belief that there is no diety. That fits in the legal definition of religion as applied by US and most international courts.
Since it's impossible to prove the non-existence of diety, the denial of said existence is just as much a question of faith as the assertion of the opposite. It's knowledge without proof. Either point of view can be backed up by logic and reason, by a variety of forms of evidence, but neither can be scientifically proven. Thus, they are both faith, by definition. Again, that makes athiesm a personal or group avocation built upon faith, which makes it a religion.
I again appologize for bringing actual definitions into the discussion. Theology is (yet another) subject that I find fascinating.
As a side note: No, you don't operate under a different constitution. Unless by that you mean you aren't a citizen of the United States. In which case, which country's constitution do you live under? (Since you said you operate under a different one, as opposed to none at all, I'm infering that you don't live in one of the many countries that doesn't have a constitution.)
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July 30, 2009 at 7:36 am
alec.wood (7/30/2009)
Well since I come from over the border in Not-America, the constitutional arguments pass me by somewhat. It's interesting though to see a long drawn out circular argument on such a preposterous statement as religious faith can be a sign of maturity.On its own how can it be? Surely, in isolation, it can be no more or less a sign of maturity than having a pulse.
Taking the most deeply religious people I know, the level of maturity amongst them is as one would expect to find within the general populous. Similarly, amongst the most mature and dependable folks I know, a mixture of religious beliefs and zeal can be found amongst them comparable with any other group.
Religious belief or practise has absolutely no bearing on one's level of maturity.
Interestingly, discrimination law tends to prevent people being discriminated against for being religious. Successful cases of people arguing religious discrimination because they aren't religious have as much likelihood of success as Caucasians arguing racial discrimination, or men arguing sexual discrimination, i.e. not much.
Bet the author never expected to be opening a can of worms like this though 🙂
Not completely true, there have been successful cases of reverse discrimination by caucasians arguing racial discrimination. That's part of the reason people are starting to look more at the affirmative action programs and wondering if they are needed any more. And, yes, you'll hear arguments both for and against. The only reason I mention it, it does happen.
None of the traits mentioned by the author are in and of themselves reliable indicators of maturity. However, they can be. Who is more mature: 50 year old married individual with 3 kids who serves faithfully in his church and volunteers with a youth sports organization or the 25 year old single?
As individuals, you won't know until you get to know the individuals. But looking at those known characteristcs, which of the two would tend to be more mature? At this point you are comparing the known traits of two people against a group. And this is what I got from this editorial, and this is why I was arguing that faith and serving in ones religious organization CAN be an indicator. Is it reliable, that it indicates that any given individual that has this trait is a mature individual, no. But look at the group, does the group tend to be more mature, possibly. You need to learn more about the individual to truely make that call.
July 30, 2009 at 7:43 am
Good point Lynn, as the well-worn adage goes:
"All generalities are false" :hehe:
There are always exceptions because that's what humans are, a large collection of exceptions. But in aggregate, the qualities mentioned can tend to be indicators of maturity.
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