July 29, 2009 at 10:59 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
And by the way, Atheism is considered a religion under the First Amendment of the Constitution.Is it? Please provide that definition. Please also note that I operate under a different constitution.
The full range of dictionary definitions exclude atheism as a religion, as does common usage.
May not be a full citation, but it is what I based my statement on. Too bad this editorial doesn't contain more information on the court decision. I'll have to do more research, but it points us in a direction to search:
(From The Gazette)
This column has advocated religious liberties for atheists, citing case law that defines atheism as just another religion - as in just another unproven and forever unprovable belief. This column has applauded a federal court ruling that forced prison wardens to allow prisoners an atheist study session. The court allowed the study session for the same reason wardens allow Bible study meetings: atheism is a religion, therefore subject to protections and restrictions of the First Amendment.
And common usage changes, that's why its common. Most people I know consider Atheism a religion just as Agnostism, Christianity, etc. An Atheist denies that there is a God, and Christian says there is. And some Atheists get just as zealous in their beliefs as some Christians in theirs.
Plus, If a governmental or private (non faith-based) business denied employment to an Atheist, I'm sure they would lose a court case based on Religion.
July 29, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
No, he stated that the DBA's he has met fell into one or more of those categories. And havng just reread the article, I don't see where he said that it was actually a sign of maturity, but something that may be possessed by a mature DBA.
like a car? or a blue shirt then? He didnt say that he has noticed that successful DBA's tend to have one or more of the following:
*bicycle
*car
*fingers
*teeth
Why do you think that was? (thats a rhetorical question)
Nope. I would not base a decision on this knowledge alone, nor would I give it preference as that would be illegal, and unethical. Except if I worked at an organization such as Focus on the Family or Compassion International where it is actually a requirement. Yes, faith based organization can legally discriminate on this basis. Just as a business higher a General Manager to run an office in the Middle East can discriminate against women for such positions due to the culture and beliefs.
but you cant quite bring yourself to say that yes, it is true, religious faith is no indicator of competence, or of maturity. Why do you think it is necessary, or OK, for a religious organisation to discriminate on the basis of faith for DBA jobs? Doesnt seem right to me. Unless religion is an integral part of the job function it should be irrelevant.
I think you have detected a whiff of atheism and started off on this oppositional argument without thinking that in reality you dont think religious faith has anything to do with job competence, or maturity. Come on admit it (being able to admit mistakes is a sign of maturity)
July 29, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Slowly getting there, here is another excerpt from an editorial in the Gazette:
Now that the U.S. Seventh Court of Appeals declared atheism to be a religion in August 2005, things are changing. It is a settled legal fact that theological atheism is as religious as theological theism or theological pantheism.
July 29, 2009 at 11:15 pm
And here is a link to an article that discusses the decision, http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/8/232005e.asp
July 29, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Right, so when you said your First Amendment defines atheism as a religion, what you meant was that you would go and dig out the opinion of a journalist about a decision of the supreme court that was based on the First Amendment.
Perhaps, for the purpose of case law, atheism is considered a religion in the US, but it is not a religion in the normal sense of the word.
There is no common creed, or set of ethics that atheists believe in, or religious practice, organisation/s, common behaviours, or religious texts. Atheists by defintion do not believe in the supernatural, or god/s. There are no atheist churches.
Atheism is a religion as far as your own lack of belief in Odin is a religion. That is to say not at all.
July 29, 2009 at 11:23 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
No, he stated that the DBA's he has met fell into one or more of those categories. And havng just reread the article, I don't see where he said that it was actually a sign of maturity, but something that may be possessed by a mature DBA.
like a car? or a blue shirt then? He didnt say that he has noticed that successful DBA's tend to have one or more of the following:
*bicycle
*car
*fingers
*teeth
Why do you think that was? (thats a rhetorical question)
Nope. I would not base a decision on this knowledge alone, nor would I give it preference as that would be illegal, and unethical. Except if I worked at an organization such as Focus on the Family or Compassion International where it is actually a requirement. Yes, faith based organization can legally discriminate on this basis. Just as a business higher a General Manager to run an office in the Middle East can discriminate against women for such positions due to the culture and beliefs.
but you cant quite bring yourself to say that yes, it is true, religious faith is no indicator of competence, or of maturity. Why do you think it is necessary, or OK, for a religious organisation to discriminate on the basis of faith for DBA jobs? Doesnt seem right to me. Unless religion is an integral part of the job function it should be irrelevant.
I think you have detected a whiff of atheism and started off on this oppositional argument without thinking that in reality you dont think religious faith has anything to do with job competence, or maturity. Come on admit it (being able to admit mistakes is a sign of maturity)
Competence, no; Maturity, quite possibly.
I can tell you, from reading job descriptions for both Focus on the Family and Compassion International, being part of prayer groups is a part of the job description. You are expected to participate. If you are an atheist, would you? Why should a Christian organization be forced to hire someone who did not believe in Christ as their Savior or in God?
July 29, 2009 at 11:28 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Right, so when you said your First Amendment defines atheism as a religion, what you meant was that you would go and dig out the opinion of a journalist about a decision of the supreme court that was based on the First Amendment.Perhaps, for the purpose of case law, atheism is considered a religion in the US, but it is not a religion in the normal sense of the word.
There is no common creed, or set of ethics that atheists believe in, or religious practice, organisation/s, common behaviours, or religious texts. Atheists by defintion do not believe in the supernatural, or god/s. There are no atheist churches.
Atheism is a religion as far as your own lack of belief in Odin is a religion. That is to say not at all.
Nope, it was a starting point. The editorial stated that it was Court Ruling. I have kept digging into it and even found an article that provided more information.
July 29, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Competence, no; Maturity, quite possibly.
It is easy to show that religious faith is not a sign of maturity. Simply go and read a forum in which religious people debate their views. You will find ample evidence that some religious people are immature.
I can tell you, from reading job descriptions for both Focus on the Family and Compassion International, being part of prayer groups is a part of the job description. You are expected to participate. If you are an atheist, would you? Why should a Christian organization be forced to hire someone who did not believe in Christ as their Savior or in God?
I dont see how being part of a prayer group is a reasonable expectation for any job. Praying is not work. It is as unreasonable as requiring people who work for the NBA to play 3 on 3 in their lunch break.
If there was a job going for a DBA in a religious organisation it would not be my first preference, but I have a mortgage to pay and should be allowed to work there doing DBA stuff regardless of my religious beliefs.
July 29, 2009 at 11:35 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Right, so when you said your First Amendment defines atheism as a religion, what you meant was that you would go and dig out the opinion of a journalist about a decision of the supreme court that was based on the First Amendment.Perhaps, for the purpose of case law, atheism is considered a religion in the US, but it is not a religion in the normal sense of the word.
There is no common creed, or set of ethics that atheists believe in, or religious practice, organisation/s, common behaviours, or religious texts. Atheists by defintion do not believe in the supernatural, or god/s. There are no atheist churches.
Atheism is a religion as far as your own lack of belief in Odin is a religion. That is to say not at all.
And I don't recall saying defined as much as protected by. Seventh Court of Appeals held it to be a Religion.
And since the most zealous of Atheists want all Religion removed from the public square, it sure sounds like a religion to me. Sort of like: If you want to believe there is a God, do so in your own home and don't display it for all to see.
Hmm, sounds more and more like oppresion to me as well. Goes against the Letter and Spirit of the Declaration of Independence, Constitution of the United States, and The Bill of Rights.
July 29, 2009 at 11:43 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Right, so when you said your First Amendment defines atheism as a religion, what you meant was that you would go and dig out the opinion of a journalist about a decision of the supreme court that was based on the First Amendment.Perhaps, for the purpose of case law, atheism is considered a religion in the US, but it is not a religion in the normal sense of the word.
There is no common creed, or set of ethics that atheists believe in, or religious practice, organisation/s, common behaviours, or religious texts. Atheists by defintion do not believe in the supernatural, or god/s. There are no atheist churches.
Atheism is a religion as far as your own lack of belief in Odin is a religion. That is to say not at all.
And I don't recall saying defined as much as protected by. Seventh Court of Appeals held it to be a Religion.
And since the most zealous of Atheists want all Religion removed from the public square, it sure sounds like a religion to me. Sort of like: If you want to believe there is a God, do so in your own home and don't display it for all to see.
Hmm, sounds more and more like oppresion to me as well. Goes against the Letter and Spirit of the Declaration of Independence, Constitution of the United States, and The Bill of Rights.
You said the First Amendment considers atheism to be a religion.
It is true, some of the more extreme atheists would like religion to be banned from the public arena. This is not true of all atheists. There are many extreme religious views out there as well that also go against the principle of your constitution, I do not tar all religious people with the same brush.
Religion is not defined as the possession of extreme views.
You know you are doing a good job convincing me that religious faith is an indicator of incompetence and irrational thinking.
July 29, 2009 at 11:50 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Competence, no; Maturity, quite possibly.
It is easy to show that religious faith is not a sign of maturity. Simply go and read a forum in which religious people debate their views. You will find ample evidence that some religious people are immature.
I can tell you, from reading job descriptions for both Focus on the Family and Compassion International, being part of prayer groups is a part of the job description. You are expected to participate. If you are an atheist, would you? Why should a Christian organization be forced to hire someone who did not believe in Christ as their Savior or in God?
I dont see how being part of a prayer group is a reasonable expectation for any job. Praying is not work. It is as unreasonable as requiring people who work for the NBA to play 3 on 3 in their lunch break.
If there was a job going for a DBA in a religious organisation it would not be my first preference, but I have a mortgage to pay and should be allowed to work there doing DBA stuff regardless of my religious beliefs.
And you can find just as many examples of immature atheists as well. What's your point? religious people don't hold a monoply on immaturity.
July 29, 2009 at 11:55 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Right, so when you said your First Amendment defines atheism as a religion, what you meant was that you would go and dig out the opinion of a journalist about a decision of the supreme court that was based on the First Amendment.Perhaps, for the purpose of case law, atheism is considered a religion in the US, but it is not a religion in the normal sense of the word.
There is no common creed, or set of ethics that atheists believe in, or religious practice, organisation/s, common behaviours, or religious texts. Atheists by defintion do not believe in the supernatural, or god/s. There are no atheist churches.
Atheism is a religion as far as your own lack of belief in Odin is a religion. That is to say not at all.
And I don't recall saying defined as much as protected by. Seventh Court of Appeals held it to be a Religion.
And since the most zealous of Atheists want all Religion removed from the public square, it sure sounds like a religion to me. Sort of like: If you want to believe there is a God, do so in your own home and don't display it for all to see.
Hmm, sounds more and more like oppresion to me as well. Goes against the Letter and Spirit of the Declaration of Independence, Constitution of the United States, and The Bill of Rights.
You said the First Amendment considers atheism to be a religion.
It is true, some of the more extreme atheists would like religion to be banned from the public arena. This is not true of all atheists. There are many extreme religious views out there as well that also go against the principle of your constitution, I do not tar all religious people with the same brush.
Religion is not defined as the possession of extreme views.
You know you are doing a good job convincing me that religious faith is an indicator of incompetence and irrational thinking.
You know why? Because this would be a better discussion if done in person.
There would be more opportunity to exchange ideas and follow thoughts to a better conclusion, or at least a willingness to accept anothers point of view while still disagreeing. You know, agreeing to disagree.
July 30, 2009 at 12:07 am
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Competence, no; Maturity, quite possibly.
It is easy to show that religious faith is not a sign of maturity. Simply go and read a forum in which religious people debate their views. You will find ample evidence that some religious people are immature.
I can tell you, from reading job descriptions for both Focus on the Family and Compassion International, being part of prayer groups is a part of the job description. You are expected to participate. If you are an atheist, would you? Why should a Christian organization be forced to hire someone who did not believe in Christ as their Savior or in God?
I dont see how being part of a prayer group is a reasonable expectation for any job. Praying is not work. It is as unreasonable as requiring people who work for the NBA to play 3 on 3 in their lunch break.
If there was a job going for a DBA in a religious organisation it would not be my first preference, but I have a mortgage to pay and should be allowed to work there doing DBA stuff regardless of my religious beliefs.
Tell me, why should a Religious organization be required to hire some one who did not share their beliefs? Your asking to put yourself into what could potentially become a difficult working environment. And who would be to blame for that?
I can understand why government entities and private businesses should not discriminate on the basis of age, race, religion, sex, or nationality. It makes total sense to me, base hiring on once qualifications and fit for the position. There is some chemistry involved. Employers want to hire someone that will work well those already there.
July 30, 2009 at 12:08 am
Competence, no; Maturity, quite possibly.
.....
And you can find just as many examples of immature atheists as well. What's your point? religious people don't hold a monoply on immaturity.
the point is that religious faith is not an indicator or maturity, alhough five minutes ago you said you thought it might be (see above)
July 30, 2009 at 12:16 am
mtucker (7/30/2009)
Competence, no; Maturity, quite possibly.
.....
And you can find just as many examples of immature atheists as well. What's your point? religious people don't hold a monoply on immaturity.
the point is that religious faith is not an indicator or maturity, alhough five minutes ago you said you thought it might be (see above)
But it isn't an indicator of immaturity either.
How about age, is that an indicator of maturity? No, but it can be. I have seen extremely mature 20-somethings and extremely immature 60-somethings.
It CAN be an indicator of maturity.
What it really comes down to is getting to know the individual. Just asking someone if they are a believer or strong in their faith is not going to tell you if they are mature. But learning about the person, and then discovering that they have a strong faith in God, work within their church, etc can demonstrate the a person of faith is mature. Which is what Brad was indicating in his observations. That some of the mature DBA's he has know were strong in their faith and worked within their religious organizations.
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