July 29, 2009 at 6:06 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/28/2009)
And I think you are wrong. There are many people I know who, for them, faith and religion have a place in the work place and therefore also here in this forum. Also realize that this is an editorial and if the writer wished to interject faith and religion, they are free to do so. There is a right to freedom of speech. If this speech offends you, don 't read it. Remember, Freedom of something does NOT equate to Freedom FROM something. As long as what is said is not libel or slander there really isn't much you can do besides complain and let others know how you feel; knowing someone is going to respond in support or against your position. Your other choice is simply to vote with your feet, and leave (not that I'm suggesting that, just stating an option).
Lynn, you are a master of a certain type of rhetoric favoured by the faithful. Your comments are a red herring. At no point did I say that the author of the editorial did not have the right, or the freedom to state his point of view. You are misrepresenting me when you imply that I did.
I will try to say it more plainly (although Im pretty sure you understood perfectly well the first time).
I dont think religion should have been brought into this forum, because it is not a forum about religion and because one's religion is not relevant to work performance.
I also disagree with the premise that religious faith is a reliable indicator of maturity.
You have not demonstrated that it is.
Red Herring or not, this particular forum thread is about an editorial in which the writer was expressing a personal opinion and observation based on his own personal experiences. That happened to include his observation regarding faith and religion. No one is stating that it is a reliable indicator of maturity. It was something the author saw in DBA's he has met. Is it there all the time, who knows, the author didn't indicate that all these traits existed in all the DBA's. To quote:
While there are exceptions, most of the DBAs *I* have met seem to fit into one or more of the following categories:
Therefore, even the author is not stating that faith and participation in ones religion is always a marker of maturity.
You are correct, you never said the author didn't have the right to mention religion, but you did say that they should not have mentioned it. Why not? He was simply making a personal observation. You also appeared dismayed about the strong debate that has occurred because of the comment. Why, because the only discussion that should be allowed on SSC should be purely technical and directed toward SQL and SQL Server specifically? If that is true then you have truely missed what SSC is all about. SSC is more than just a technical forum, it is community, and we have had discussions about much much more than SQL Server on many of the threads here. Many of us have made friends here and have never met each other in person.
So, as a community, any topic is open for discussion here, just as it is in most work places in the break rooms, or around the water cooler, in the hallways. It is going to happen, and if you don't like, oh well. It is one of the charms about SSC, and makes me come back. I chose to be here, I chose to try and help those who need help, I chose to ask for help here when I need it. If the conversations go off topic, I'll follow along just as many of the others.
With that, I will bid farewell (for now) as I must go fix dinner for the family as my wife would like to get back out to the hospital to be with her mom who had a heart attack this morning (been out there all day today).
July 29, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
Red Herring or not, this particular forum thread is about an editorial in which the writer was expressing a personal opinion and observation based on his own personal experiences. That happened to include his observation regarding faith and religion. No one is stating that it is a reliable indicator of maturity. It was something the author saw in DBA's he has met. Is it there all the time, who knows, the author didn't indicate that all these traits existed in all the DBA's.
Your comments about freedom of speech were a red herring because I did not say the author had no right to express his opinions. You diverted the argument away from the points I made, and misrepresented what I had said. The editorial was not about freedom of speech or freedom of religion.
Therefore, even the author is not stating that faith and participation in ones religion is always a marker of maturity.
The implication of his comments were that amongst other things religious faith was a marker of maturity. It is not, and you have not shown that it is.
You are correct, you never said the author didn't have the right to mention religion, but you did say that they should not have mentioned it. Why not? He was simply making a personal observation.
Why not? Because this is not a forum about religion, and (as you now seem to agree) because religious faith has nothing to do with competence as a DBA.
You also appeared dismayed about the strong debate that has occurred because of the comment. Why, because the only discussion that should be allowed on SSC should be purely technical and directed toward SQL and SQL Server specifically? If that is true then you have truely missed what SSC is all about. SSC is more than just a technical forum, it is community, and we have had discussions about much much more than SQL Server on many of the threads here. Many of us have made friends here and have never met each other in person.
Im not at all dismayed - is that a sly attempt at an insult? In fact, I am enjoying the discussion. I am disappointed that religion has been suggested as a marker of maturity. I am also disappointed that you have indulged in specious rhetoric.
It is going to happen, and if you don't like, oh well. It is one of the charms about SSC, and makes me come back. I chose to be here, I chose to try and help those who need help, I chose to ask for help here when I need it.
Good for you. I understand that in America many people feel they need to publicly establish their religious credentials. I hope your mother in law is recovering well from her heart attack.
July 29, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Therefore, even the author is not stating that faith and participation in ones religion is always a marker of maturity.
The implication of his comments were that amongst other things religious faith was a marker of maturity. It is not, and you have not shown that it is.
Again, you are misrepresenting what the author stated. He said, and I quote, "While there are exceptions, most of the DBAs *I* have met seem to fit into one or more of the following categories". Read that, ONE OR MORE categories. Faith and religion is just ONE of those categories, and he isn't stating that most DBA's all fall into that one particular category. It could be only four or five out of twenty fall in that one particular category. Who knows, I certainly don't.
Why not? Because this is not a forum about religion, and (as you now seem to agree) because religious faith has nothing to do with competence as a DBA.
But I don't agree. It could have something to do with an individuals competence as a DBA. An individual who excels in this area may truely believe that this is God's calling for him. Doubt that, go to UltraEdit.com and read the story behind that product. By the way, I use UltraEdit and UltraEdit Studio. Both are truely excellent products.
You also appeared dismayed about the strong debate that has occurred because of the comment. Why, because the only discussion that should be allowed on SSC should be purely technical and directed toward SQL and SQL Server specifically? If that is true then you have truely missed what SSC is all about. SSC is more than just a technical forum, it is community, and we have had discussions about much much more than SQL Server on many of the threads here. Many of us have made friends here and have never met each other in person.
Im not at all dismayed - is that a sly attempt at an insult? In fact, I am enjoying the discussion. I am disappointed that religion has been suggested as a marker of maturity. I am also disappointed that you have indulged in specious rhetoric.
Nope, not a sly attempt at an insult at all, just my impression based on your posts.
So, now I want to know why "People of faith, participating in their chosen religion." can't be a marker for maturity. I know it can't always be a marker, but why can't it be a marker for some? What invalidates it?
It is going to happen, and if you don't like, oh well. It is one of the charms about SSC, and makes me come back. I chose to be here, I chose to try and help those who need help, I chose to ask for help here when I need it.
Good for you. I understand that in America many people feel they need to publicly establish their religious credentials. I hope your mother in law is recovering well from her heart attack.
You know, I really don't feel the need to publicly establish my religious credentials. In fact some may say I'm a hypocrite. I don't attend church regularly. I have seen those that do who, in my opinion are even more hypocritical than I am. But I won't hide my faith either. So when faith is questioned, I'll stand up and be counted.
July 29, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
Again, you are misrepresenting what the author stated. He said, and I quote, "While there are exceptions, most of the DBAs *I* have met seem to fit into one or more of the following categories". Read that, ONE OR MORE categories. Faith and religion is just ONE of those categories, and he isn't stating that most DBA's all fall into that one particular category. It could be only four or five out of twenty fall in that one particular category. Who knows, I certainly don't.
I disagree that religious faith tells you anything about the competence of a DBA. It should not be on the list because it adds nothing in terms of predicting competence. Similarly for some of the other items. It is an asinine list. Would you not agree that hair colour or presence of chest hair would have been silly to include? Religion, likewise.
But I don't agree. It could have something to do with an individuals competence as a DBA. An individual who excels in this area may truely believe that this is God's calling for him.
Except that you have not shown that it has. There is no evidence that suggests that religious faith is an indicator of maturity (plenty of 7 yr old believers out there), or of job competence.
So, now I want to know why "People of faith, participating in their chosen religion." can't be a marker for maturity. I know it can't always be a marker, but why can't it be a marker for some? What invalidates it?
A marker is not valid if it only applies to some of the population. It is not reliable if it does not predict what it purports to, or does not discriminate between people (for example 99% of good DBAs have at least 3 fingers - but the prsence of 3 fingers does not guarantee you will be a good DBA). There is plenty of evidence that there are immature people who are religious, and there is plenty of evidence that many atheists are mature, therefore it is not a good indicator. Does Regis 'university' not teach these basic principles?
So when faith is questioned, I'll stand up and be counted.
Your faith has not been questioned. I challenge you to find a religious leader who thinks faith is a sign of DBA competence.
July 29, 2009 at 8:14 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Why not? Because this is not a forum about religion, and (as you now seem to agree) because religious faith has nothing to do with competence as a DBA.
And you are correct, this isn't a religous forum. Are you saying that religion (or faith) only belongs in a small compartimental area? That it does not have place in the public square?
Sorry, I have to disagree. For one, we are in a discuss thread for an editorial that mentioned faith and religion. Two, SQLServerCentral.com is much more than technical forum, it is a community. May I suggest you read the following (and yes, I wrote it):
July 29, 2009 at 8:34 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
A marker is not valid if it only applies to some of the population. It is not reliable if it does not predict what it purports to, or does not discriminate between people (for example 99% of good DBAs have at least 3 fingers - but the prsence of 3 fingers does not guarantee you will be a good DBA). There is plenty of evidence that there are immature people who are religious, and there is plenty of evidence that many atheists are mature, therefore it is not a good indicator. Does Regis 'university' not teach these basic principles?
First, Atheism is a religion. So yes, there can and are mature atheists.
But let us go off on a tagent at this point. You argue that if a marker is not valid if it only applies to some of the population.
What is one of the markers used by businesses today in hiring IT professionals, having a degree in Computer Science. Is this an accurate marker? No. I know quite a few individuals in the IT field that don't have a degree and are extremely successful. But it is still used. Look at all the requirements to become a Software Engineer, or Programmer, or Database Analyst, and the list goes on and on. Every one of them will say it is a requirement. Let's take this a step further. I also know people that have Computer Science degrees that couldn't write a decent line of code if their lives depended on it. I've had to help clean up messes left behind by such paper programmers and developers.
Curious why you quoted university when mentioning Regis. It is Regis University, I should know, I graduated from it.
My time there taught me quite a bit. About different religions and belief systems, ethics, marketing, accounting, computer science.
July 29, 2009 at 8:43 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
I challenge you to find a religious leader who thinks faith is a sign of DBA competence.
I challenge you to find one that says it isn't.
But then you are still missing the point made by the author. He never said it was a marker for competence as a DBA, he said it was one of the categories that some of the successful DBA's he has met fall in to. All the successful DBA's he has met fall into ONE OR MORE of the following categories. He then asked if employers look for people with these traits. Some may, some may not. On religion, it is illegal (for most employers) to even ask about ones faith or religion. But if the individual brings it up, then it is open for discussion, but I'd avoid anyway. Most people I know would not bring it up during an interview anyway.
July 29, 2009 at 8:47 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
So when faith is questioned, I'll stand up and be counted.
Your faith has not been questioned.
And you are reading things that aren't being said. I never said MY faith was being questioned, I said when faith is questioned. And it was. You wished (or words to that affect) that the author hadn't mentioned it in his editorial.
July 29, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
First, Atheism is a religion.
Atheism is a lack of belief in god/s, or a belief that there is no god/s. So by definition it is not a religion.
You argue that if a marker is not valid if it only applies to some of the population.
What is one of the markers used by businesses today in hiring IT professionals, having a degree in Computer Science. Is this an accurate marker? No.
It is true that it is hard to find good indicators or competence. That does not mean religious faith is a good indicator because it is (arguably) as bad as those you mention. In my experience training, qualifications and work are better indicators of competence than religious belief.
July 29, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
I challenge you to find a religious leader who thinks faith is a sign of DBA competence.I challenge you to find one that says it isn't.
hahaha..so what are you saying here? that all religious leaders say that faith indicates competence as a DBA? I nominate the Pope.
But then you are still missing the point made by the author. He never said it was a marker for competence as a DBA, he said it was one of the categories that some of the successful DBA's he has met fall in to.
So what point was he making then? Why mention that it was one of the categories that successful DBA's fall into if not to put forward the idea that it was an important category with regards to their success?
You now seem to be saying that his list was pointless. So what is it? Do you think religious faith indicates DBA competence? Would you give preferential treatment to a job candidate if you knew they were Christian?
July 29, 2009 at 9:53 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
I challenge you to find a religious leader who thinks faith is a sign of DBA competence.I challenge you to find one that says it isn't.
hahaha..so what are you saying here? that all religious leaders say that faith indicates competence as a DBA? I nominate the Pope.
You really like putting words in my mouth don't you. Please show me where in all this thread I stated that one.
But then you are still missing the point made by the author. He never said it was a marker for competence as a DBA, he said it was one of the categories that some of the successful DBA's he has met fall in to.
So what point was he making then? Why mention that it was one of the categories that successful DBA's fall into if not to put forward the idea that it was an important category with regards to their success?
Now I know you are truely missing the point. It is an editorial, a personal opinion based on his own observations. He then asks if these are things that an employer may be looking for in a DBA.
You now seem to be saying that his list was pointless. So what is it? Do you think religious faith indicates DBA competence? Would you give preferential treatment to a job candidate if you knew they were Christian?
First, no, I'm not saying his list was pointless. Again it was a personal observation on his point, nothing more. It led him to ask a question.
Second, would I give preferential treatment to a job candidate if I knew they were Christian? I have to base this answer off where I work now, so no. I also would not knock someone down that I knew was an Athiest, for the same reason.
July 29, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
I challenge you to find a religious leader who thinks faith is a sign of DBA competence.I challenge you to find one that says it isn't.
You really like putting words in my mouth don't you. Please show me where in all this thread I stated that one.
see your statement above - you challenged me to find a religious leader that does not think faith is a sign of DBA competence, implying that religious leaders in general do think this is the case. Very bizarre.
Now I know you are truely missing the point. It is an editorial, a personal opinion based on his own observations. He then asks if these are things that an employer may be looking for in a DBA.
His personal opinion was that religious faith, amongst other things, was a sign of maturity. I disagree for the reasons I have already made clear. You seem to want to have it both ways.
Second, would I give preferential treatment to a job candidate if I knew they were Christian? I have to base this answer off where I work now, so no. I also would not knock someone down that I knew was an Athiest, for the same reason.
So you agree with me that religious faith is not a sign of competence, or maturity?
July 29, 2009 at 10:17 pm
And by the way, Atheism is considered a religion under the First Amendment of the Constitution.
July 29, 2009 at 10:33 pm
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
mtucker (7/29/2009)
I challenge you to find a religious leader who thinks faith is a sign of DBA competence.I challenge you to find one that says it isn't.
You really like putting words in my mouth don't you. Please show me where in all this thread I stated that one.
see your statement above - you challenged me to find a religious leader that does not think faith is a sign of DBA competence, implying that religious leaders in general do think this is the case. Very bizarre.
No, you challenged me to find a religious leader who thinks faith is a sign of DBA competence. I simply challanged you to find one who thinks it isnt. I did not imply or infer anything at all.
Now I know you are truely missing the point. It is an editorial, a personal opinion based on his own observations. He then asks if these are things that an employer may be looking for in a DBA.
His personal opinion was that religious faith, amongst other things, was a sign of maturity. I disagree for the reasons I have already made clear. You seem to want to have it both ways.
No, he stated that the DBA's he has met fell into one or more of those categories. And havng just reread the article, I don't see where he said that it was actually a sign of maturity, but something that may be possessed by a mature DBA.
Second, would I give preferential treatment to a job candidate if I knew they were Christian? I have to base this answer off where I work now, so no. I also would not knock someone down that I knew was an Athiest, for the same reason.
So you agree with me that religious faith is not a sign of competence, or maturity?
Nope. I would not base a decision on this knowledge alone, nor would I give it preference as that would be illegal, and unethical. Except if I worked at an organization such as Focus on the Family or Compassion International where it is actually a requirement. Yes, faith based organization can legally discriminate on this basis. Just as a business higher a General Manager to run an office in the Middle East can discriminate against women for such positions due to the culture and beliefs.
July 29, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/29/2009)
And by the way, Atheism is considered a religion under the First Amendment of the Constitution.
Is it? Please provide that definition. Please also note that I operate under a different constitution.
The full range of dictionary definitions exclude atheism as a religion, as does common usage.
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