April 9, 2014 at 12:48 pm
Hey all,
I decided to do a serious career turn about and get back into Comp Sci (which I started in undergrad 15 years go, but switched to Soc Sci).
I acquired SQL Server 2012 books and studied on my own for 3 or so months. I passed 70-461 last week on my first try and was proud of it until...
I have been sending out resumes since then, but getting little interest from employers. I have just spoken with one recruiter who called me back. But after she found out that I have no work experience with SQL, she said she was interested and they were looking for 6 months of SQL experience or more.
Considering:
- I had serious statistical training and experience in graduate school and
- was able to learn SQL from scratch on my own and
- pass an exam "intended for SQL Server database administrators, system engineers, and developers with two or more years of experience, who are seeking to validate their skills and knowledge in writing queries"
How can that not substitute for 6 month SQL experience!?
Does anyone have suggestions for how I can demonstrate to potential employers that I can do serious querying for day one on the job?
Thanks for your suggestions!
April 9, 2014 at 1:08 pm
It stinks but that's how employers look at it. The reason is that it is possible to pass the certification exams without actually knowing the material or how to do the work. People have been known to cheat by using services that replicate the exams. They work on cramming for the exam. When they pass the exam and go to interviews, the interviewer finds out they know little or nothing about the job. So, employers ask for some experience so they know that you not only passed the exam but have been using your skills. They don't want to waste their time interviewing someone who has crammed and really knows nothing.
Now, you, not having crammed, and have learned the material, feel cheated because you would like a fair shot at an interview. It is very exasperating but you have to come up with a way to prove you know what you are doing. One way may be for you to volunteer at a non-profit and see how that goes. You can then put that work on your resume and have a better chance at getting an interview.
Good luck.
Tom
April 9, 2014 at 1:18 pm
Tom,
Thanks for the suggestion. I will search around town for some volunteer work.
Jason
April 9, 2014 at 1:30 pm
Does anyone know any websites that provide an opportunity to remotely volunteer to help organizations with their SQL needs (data maintenance, cleaning, analysis, etc.)?
April 9, 2014 at 1:41 pm
Maybe you could do some networking if there's a local PASS chapter near you.
http://www.sqlpass.org/PASSChapters/LocalChapters.aspx
That way you'll be able to speak with SQL Server professionals and prove that you might be worth the try.
April 9, 2014 at 1:56 pm
Try looking for a statistical analysis job that lists 'some familiarity with SQL Server' as a nice-to-have. Over the years, I worked with quite a few people who started in other fields, and got into IT thru the side door, doing the computer stuff nobody else wanted to do. And, go onto Indeed.com, and search for jobs with both requirements. Play around with your keywords to get an idea of what's out there. Good luck.
April 9, 2014 at 3:42 pm
As someone who used to hire people....
Nope. I don't care.
I know the test says it's advanced and special and shows off a great deal of knowledge, but that's just not true. I care about the things you've done and nothing else. I know that's tough, but years and years interviewing people who were certified, but didn't actually know anything beyond what it took to pass to the test has jaundiced my point of view.
Look for volunteer work and network at your local PASS user group. Introductory level jobs as a DBA are extremely rare on the ground. Good luck!
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
April 9, 2014 at 7:30 pm
If your current job needs some SQL reporting done that is just not happening, then perhaps you can volunteer to create SQL reports to fill a business need you see. That is how I got started. My company needed reports that were not available in the application. I learned SQL so I could get at the info in the database and fill a business need we had. Perhaps combine that with SQL Server Reporting Services and you could build a development career.
April 9, 2014 at 9:30 pm
j.b.shteyn (4/9/2014)
Hey all,I decided to do a serious career turn about and get back into Comp Sci (which I started in undergrad 15 years go, but switched to Soc Sci).
I acquired SQL Server 2012 books and studied on my own for 3 or so months. I passed 70-461 last week on my first try and was proud of it until...
I have been sending out resumes since then, but getting little interest from employers. I have just spoken with one recruiter who called me back. But after she found out that I have no work experience with SQL, she said she was interested and they were looking for 6 months of SQL experience or more.
Considering:
- I had serious statistical training and experience in graduate school and
- was able to learn SQL from scratch on my own and
- pass an exam "intended for SQL Server database administrators, system engineers, and developers with two or more years of experience, who are seeking to validate their skills and knowledge in writing queries"
How can that not substitute for 6 month SQL experience!?
Does anyone have suggestions for how I can demonstrate to potential employers that I can do serious querying for day one on the job?
Thanks for your suggestions!
Even if everyone trusted such certs 100%, think of brain surgeons... Would you want one fresh out of school or one that has opened up a few heads before? Same thing applies here because DBAs almost literally deal with the brains of the company in the form of data.
That, notwithstanding, one way to fight the "beginners stigma" is to say on your cover letter or in your objective at the beginning of your resume, just exactly what you posted here on this thread.
- Unlike more experienced candidates, I have serious statistical training and experience in graduate school
- I was able to learn SQL from scratch on my own and
- pass an exam "intended for SQL Server database administrators, system engineers, and developers with two or more years of experience, who are seeking to validate their skills and knowledge in writing queries"
If they gave you a grade on your SQL exam, it might be worth listing it along with what the max is.
I'd also cite those facts in my cover letter along with a statement like "I bring the same drive that I had to pass an exam that normally requires 2 years of experience to the table."
Last but not least, I'd start answering questions on forums. A LOT of questions. Just make sure that you're right. There's nothing like a newbie being able to say "I have my own copy of the Developer's Edition and have done a lot of work on the forums to try to get the experience you want. Here are some links to my work on the forums."
You should also start looking techniques up. These are things that aren't in any of the certification books. Learn what a Tally Table is and how it can be used to replace loops. Be an absolute expert at being able to generate a million rows of random but constrained test data and then test against it to show that you know joins and performance methods. Write a backup routine using only T-SQL. Write some code that uses DMVs to find what's currently running and what the top x worst queries are including the execution plans. Learn how to do "catch all" queries. Have an impeccable formatting style with good comments in all your code. Write some code that uses your mathematical talents. Learn CROSS TABs and Pivots. Learn how to import data using BCP/BULK insert. Learn how to push code to all databases. Etc, etc. Make all of that available online on a forum like this one. Maybe even start writing some articles (again, do some research... if you publish something wrong, it'll be there forever).
You're actually not fighting anything that a new graduate in any field doesn't have to fight. Graduating really only qualifies you to really start learning. It sounds like you have the drive... give it a shot.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
April 9, 2014 at 11:59 pm
lptech (4/9/2014)
Try looking for a statistical analysis job that lists 'some familiarity with SQL Server' as a nice-to-have.
Thanks Iptech. Sounds like a great idea, I will look into that!
Luis Cazares (4/9/2014)
Maybe you could do some networking if there's a local PASS chapter near you.http://www.sqlpass.org/PASSChapters/LocalChapters.aspx
That way you'll be able to speak with SQL Server professionals and prove that you might be worth the try.
So following Luis's suggestion I looked up PASS Chapters nearby and noticed that there was a monthly meeting being held that night in two hours! And I live an hour and half away!! So I jumped in the shower (right now I am a construction project manager), dried myself off, hugged my wife, kissed my boy (or maybe the other way around). An hour and half later, deep in the heart New Jersey, through a vast corporate campus, inside of the Microsoft building, I was there.
There were about 25 people there, mainly white middle-aged men, few South Asians, a couple of East Asians, one African-American, maybe even a couple of my East European brethren, a good diverse crowd. Based on a show of hands, two thirds of them were DBAs and one third were developers. Three people were there for the pizza, the rest for the presentation - none were there to mingle. I did talk to one person though, he was not interested in my resume, but he did point me to other groups and meetings in my area (he also suggested that people cram for those certification exam just to pass them). So no one there seemed like there were in the managerial position with hiring authority and the attitude that I felt was that they are educated and experienced professionals and that there is no way some kid can learn their craft on his own without spending as much time and energy as they have. Which is completely understandable, but I don't claim to be their equal. Why does it have to be "either you're on my level of sophistication or you're not a 'real' [insert profession]" (or a tuple of professions for that matter)?
Presentation was pretty interesting though. It was Leonard Lobel talking about some newfangled SQL Server Data Tools (SSDT). Some kind of VS-like environment with similar debugging, exceptions and intellisense features and it like allows you to work disconnected from the database because it keeps a virtual representation of the database down to the var definitions and any changes you make to table definitions and whatnot get scripted and are used to update that actual database, something like that, anyway what do I understand I am just a newbie. The presenter was good though - very fast and clear. He didn't skip a bit. It is cool to listen to people who are very confident about discussing complex things without being obnoxious. He brought his book, I might buy it. Also, realized I am a lot more interested in developing than DBAing. Unfortunately, could not sit through presentation because I had to get back in time for a dinner party where I needed to do more networking.
But getting back to the thread...
Grant Fritchey (4/9/2014)
As someone who used to hire people....Nope. I don't care.
I know the test says it's advanced and special and shows off a great deal of knowledge, but that's just not true. I care about the things you've done and nothing else. I know that's tough, but years and years interviewing people who were certified, but didn't actually know anything beyond what it took to pass to the test has jaundiced my point of view.
Fortuitously, this situation happened...
So I got back and went to the party where I ran into two dudes who work in actuarial industry and whom I have not seen since I studied for the exam. It happened to come up that half their work with data is through SQL Server (the other half, by the way, is through MS Excel, which is insane with thousands of rows!). They were complaining that their queries are taking too long. So I gave them a quick spiel about creating clustered indexes on the column they join on most frequently and non-clustered on columns in where clause, looking at the actual execution plan to see the bottlenecks and so on. They have actually heard of indexes but they did not know what they were (by the way why everyone pronounces indexes not indices - I always thought it was the latter?). So I didn't even mention indexed views, in-line functions and stored procedures to improve performance (SQL reuses execution plans or something like that, right). And all those things were just off top of my head from prepping for the exam. If I actually had the job and needed a more serious tuning I can read Grant Fritchey's books and tune their stuff up to wazoo. I understand that they also have specialized knowledge of their field and SQL is not their primary skill, but still to employers their SQL experience as part of their jobs seems to look a lot better than me passing 70-461. Their company is not hiring but they said they will mention me.
Anyway thank you for listening to my rant out here on the interwebs and yes that dinner party served a little alcohol.
Jeff Moden (4/9/2014)
You should also start looking techniques up. These are things that aren't in any of the certification books. Learn what a Tally Table is and how it can be used to replace loops. Be an absolute expert at being able to generate a million rows of random but constrained test data and then test against it to show that you know joins and performance methods. Write a backup routine using only T-SQL. Write some code that uses DMVs to find what's currently running and what the top x worst queries are including the execution plans. Learn how to do "catch all" queries. Have an impeccable formatting style with good comments in all your code. Write some code that uses your mathematical talents. Learn CROSS TABs and Pivots. Learn how to import data using BCP/BULK insert. Learn how to push code to all databases. Etc, etc. Make all of that available online on a forum like this one. Maybe even start writing some articles (again, do some research... if you publish something wrong, it'll be there forever).
Great stuff, thanks! I know a couple of things you mentioned. I will be sure to look up the rest.
April 10, 2014 at 1:32 am
I hope everything works out.
You seem more motivated and eager to learn some of the people here on the forums asking for interview questions.
Good luck with your challenge!
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
April 10, 2014 at 1:33 am
Grant Fritchey (4/9/2014)
I know the test says it's advanced and special and shows off a great deal of knowledge, but that's just not true. ... I know that's tough, but years and years interviewing people who were certified, but didn't actually know anything beyond what it took to pass to the test has jaundiced my point of view.
I don't think that's what certifications are for, so I'll pose this question: if you have two roughly equivalent applicants for a role:
- One has experience, and says, "I didn't go for certification because they're pointless."
- One has experience, and certifications, and says, "I got certified because I care about my career and the peace of mind it gives some customers."
Is that second case not going to influence your opinion?
The horror stories I hear (and by horror I mean regular, recurring events) are of people interviewing well and then turning up unable to do anything - certified or not. I know certification is not a cure all but as someone who works in the field, studied, and passed two of the exams I wouldn't say they were easy. I had to think about what I was answering and the questions were well worded to catch out the uninformed.
It just seems like, "A small portion of people are dishonest, hence trust nobody" doesn't translate to the real world. You don't stop trusting medical professionals because a GP somewhere might have cheated on their exam.
April 10, 2014 at 3:23 am
Cody K (4/10/2014)
I don't think that's what certifications are for, so I'll pose this question: if you have two roughly equivalent applicants for a role:- One has experience, and says, "I didn't go for certification because they're pointless."
- One has experience, and certifications, and says, "I got certified because I care about my career and the peace of mind it gives some customers."
Is that second case not going to influence your opinion?
The horror stories I hear (and by horror I mean regular, recurring events) are of people interviewing well and then turning up unable to do anything - certified or not. I know certification is not a cure all but as someone who works in the field, studied, and passed two of the exams I wouldn't say they were easy. I had to think about what I was answering and the questions were well worded to catch out the uninformed.
It just seems like, "A small portion of people are dishonest, hence trust nobody" doesn't translate to the real world. You don't stop trusting medical professionals because a GP somewhere might have cheated on their exam.
Nope.
And in my experience, it's not a small percentage. On average, I found people with certifications to be less able than those without. Over about a three year period I interviewed close to 1,000 people for a couple of jobs. We hired one (and promoted one from within the company). Of course there are exceptions, and back when Microsoft had a meaningful certification, MCM, you had to have the others to get that one. But there are extremely few MCMs in the world. I'm not against the certifications, but with that mythical perfectly equal candidate, I don't see that they're the extra weight on the scale, even if the motivation for getting them was the "peace of mind" it gives to others. Now, tell me you answer questions on the forums, that you blog, that you present at your local user group, those are extra weights on the scale.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
April 10, 2014 at 3:26 am
Grant Fritchey (4/10/2014)
Nope.And in my experience, it's not a small percentage. On average, I found people with certifications to be less able than those without. Over about a three year period I interviewed close to 1,000 people for a couple of jobs. We hired one (and promoted one from within the company). Of course there are exceptions, and back when Microsoft had a meaningful certification, MCM, you had to have the others to get that one. But there are extremely few MCMs in the world. I'm not against the certifications, but with that mythical perfectly equal candidate, I don't see that they're the extra weight on the scale, even if the motivation for getting them was the "peace of mind" it gives to others. Now, tell me you answer questions on the forums, that you blog, that you present at your local user group, those are extra weights on the scale.
I have certifications! (and I do BI as well :blink:)
(but I also blog, answer questions and present, so I guess I'm safe from your angriness :-P)
I find certifications usefull - at least for myself - because it forces me to look at pieces of SQL Server I normally don't or rarely use at my day to day job. It gives me a better grasp of SQL Server. I may not be able to set up replication and clustering very efficiently, but at least I know it exists and I have some high-level overview of how they work.
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
April 10, 2014 at 3:32 am
j.b.shteyn (4/9/2014)
Three people were there for the pizza, the rest for the presentation - none were there to mingle. I did talk to one person though, he was not interested in my resume, but he did point me to other groups and meetings in my area (he also suggested that people cram for those certification exam just to pass them).
Awesome!
They won't be managers and people who can get you a job. They're people who are working in the field and you just want to take the time to talk to them. Go back again the next month. Don't waive your resume around, but keep talking to people. Ask questions. If this is the group run by Melissa Demsak, find her, tell her I said hi, and let her know what you're doing. She'll help out.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
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