November 26, 2010 at 8:02 am
simonk1971 (11/26/2010)
Who would even go to interview without having an idea of the salary range available anyway?
Just about anyone who's been out of work for a while. Also and strangely enough, interviewing at a job you're pretty sure you aren't going to want is good practice for the ones you do.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
November 26, 2010 at 8:06 am
Jeff Moden (11/26/2010)
simonk1971 (11/26/2010)
Who would even go to interview without having an idea of the salary range available anyway?Just about anyone who's been out of work for a while. Also and strangely enough, interviewing at a job you're pretty sure you aren't going to want is good practice for the ones you do.
Fair point, Jeff, but then I guess you would also be less likely to turn it down if it were offered to you and didn't meet your salary expectations.
November 26, 2010 at 8:56 am
Well, it depends on what is revealed in the actual interview. In the past, I have been told things in a phone interview that was very different from what I was told in the actual interview, particularly concerning the load of my responsibilites. If the actual interview reveals alot more responsibilities than what the original posted job description or salary range dictated. Then yes, salary will be revisited, although maybe not in detail during the interview. Maybe I would make a statement at the end of the interview like "I was not aware of all of this added responsibilty and duties before now, so we might have to revisit salary, if I am in fact the candidate you are seeking." I have actually had people tell me that they will not pay more that a certain amount right up front, and then flat out lie to me in the phone interview what is expected of me. If I hear something like this when I ask 'Who does this position report to?" "Well you work for and take directions from anyone in the department." My response is "Ok but if that is the case then we need to revisit my starting salary because that was based on your posted job description and duties of the position and that important detail you just revealed to me was not in there." 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
November 26, 2010 at 8:56 am
The only places I know that are "up front" about salary are universities and the U.S. Federal government. Universities typically pay entry-level salaries, so they phone-screen applicants by declaring the salary (or narrow salary range) then wincing as applicants scream. Everyone else is trying to get the best qualified for their "bag of bucks" and plays very coy. So they have to offer first; I don't offer.
November 26, 2010 at 9:24 am
There are 5 parts to the interview: Introductions, Answers, Questions, Closing, and Follow-up. You'll want to make sure you understand when going from one-to-another and have a strategy for each part.
November 26, 2010 at 9:26 am
I used to be much more sensitive about asking the expected salary question in the past, but after seeing enough candidates, now I ask this question right during the initial pre-screening interview and found it to be a fairly straightforward subject, so why play tricks and games?
It has happened that I invited a person for a formal interview knowing that his salary expectations far exceeded the position's budget. I did this just to get an idea of what that kind of candidate could be really worth if I had the money to spend and sometimes even for selfish reasons such as to let our developers speak with someone who is a significantly stronger candidate compared to themselves to make them think of where they should be in their career goals in a long haul.
Funny, how you begin to grow thicker skin one you become a manager - in the past I could never imagine conducting performance appraisals of my fellow co-workers especially if someone is really not cutting it or those unpleasant times, when you have to discipline someone for letting the team down, but eventually you learn how to separate your personal empathy from the needs of the organization as long as you don't begin to think of yourself as the Big Cheese.
Happy Thanksgiving!
November 26, 2010 at 11:08 am
What you need to know prior to the interview is what is the market is willing pay for someone of your skills in a position like what you are applying for. The company on their part should know this as well and be aware of what they are willing to pay. They might advertise for an intermediate level DBA and feel they would be willing to pay up to $80,000 even if industry average were $60,000 to $70,000 (don't slam me on my numbers. I know they vary geographically as well as by industry and in any case I made them up) Another company may accept the same industry average range but may only be willing to pay up to $65,000 - the low end of the spectrum. However, if you really shine in the interview the company may be willing to move on their offer perhaps by reclassifying the position as a senior level DBA. In either case there is an expectation of what the company will pay and what you want. There is a danger in you revealing that you will be willing to accept a position for $60,000 when the company may be willing to pay $80,000. That is one reason why knowing the range before hand is helpfull. But in my mind salary should be discussed only when it is obvious the company wants to hire you. (like a second interview where you know they are interested) If they say "we can start you at $60,000 with 2 weeks vacation" and you want to start at $75,000 with 3 weeks then this is the time to negotiate. If I were interviewing and the first comment of the candidate is "i want at least xxxx" I would probably say "this isn't the time to negotiate, I haven't even decided I want you here and after that comment I may not want you here" as I might assume the person is only interested in money and therefore will run away with a better offer. I know turnover exists but I expect a candiate to at least make an effort. If a company trully wants to hire a candidate and that person is not asking for something unreasonable - 16 Million over 3 years, then it can probably be done. If HR is on the ball then they should know want the industry is willing to pay and should be willing to help. If a company is not willing to make an effort to meet my request it may not be a good place to work. I've been asked on a first interview what my salary expectations are and I ususally say "I expect to be paid fairly according to my skills and the open market." If they push I try to clarify if they have now decided they want to hire me and we are now negotiating benefits. I know some companies rather that subscribe to salary surveys may try to hire people in order to find out what they want as a salary - never meaning to extend any job offer; just like some people may like to interview knowing they don't really want to change jobs - they just want to know what is out there. The best companies advertise the salary range they are willing to pay but even then ... everything is negotiable in the world of DBAs
Francis
November 26, 2010 at 1:44 pm
Interesting thoughts, and thanks for the comments. I still think it's important to get an idea of range early on. Then you can factor that in to deciding how far to pursue things.
The thing to keep in mind is that the person doing the hiring often doesn't have the latitude to alter salary ranges or decide what they can pay you. Knowing that early can help you decide if this is worth pursuing or if you should perhaps consider asking for consideration in a different position so that they can meet your salary.
November 27, 2010 at 7:34 am
I'm in favor of being candid, but also open to taking a chance on an interview. For a first interview that doesn't require extensive travel I'd be willing to go without confirming the range. The hard part is that in many interviews it will be a panel where not everyone on the panel knows what the range is, or what it could be for the right person. Asking in a panel is just a formula for turning the conversation to awkward.
This is one of the areas where having an agent, usally someone from a staffing company, makes a lot of sense, it shields you from having to ask and risking asking the wrong person, or the right person at the wrong time.
Jeff, love the comment about practice. Not something that gets acknowledged much, but it's not a good idea for your first interview in years to be the for the job you really want!
November 27, 2010 at 8:41 am
Andy Warren (11/27/2010)
This is one of the areas where having an agent, usally someone from a staffing company, makes a lot of sense, it shields you from having to ask and risking asking the wrong person, or the right person at the wrong time.
The problem with this is that most staffing agencies are not truthful with you about what the company is really willing to pay. They will tell you the salary is $85K a year when actually they bill the company $100K and pocket the diffetrence. They just made $15K on your expertise and all they did was make a phone on your behalf! Talk about parasites. They are mo better than car salesman IMHO. I stopped using those thieves long ago. I deal will the company straight out and cut out the middle man. Most companies I hear from are also fed up with their crap as well.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
November 28, 2010 at 12:14 pm
I'm in favor of talking about salary ranges early on, preferably before either party has spent significant time in the process (for example, during the initial phone screening). That being said, when asked about salary expectations, as a candidate I try to keep the range as wide as possible, because there's more to the job than how much is in your pay envelope. For example, a $100k job that requires an hour commute every day is not the same as a $100k job that's six blocks away (or six seconds away, for WFH positions).
But to Jeff's point earlier, in *most* cases there is no harm in interviewing for a position you're unlikely to accept. It keeps you in practice as an interviewee, and a good interview that doesn't immediately result in an offer could plant a seed for something in the future.
Tim Mitchell, Microsoft Data Platform MVP
Data Warehouse and ETL Consultant
TimMitchell.net | @Tim_Mitchell | Tyleris.com
ETL Best Practices
November 28, 2010 at 1:49 pm
TravisDBA (11/27/2010)
Andy Warren (11/27/2010)
This is one of the areas where having an agent, usally someone from a staffing company, makes a lot of sense, it shields you from having to ask and risking asking the wrong person, or the right person at the wrong time.The problem with this is that most staffing agencies are not truthful with you about what the company is really willing to pay. They will tell you the salary is $85K a year when actually they bill the company $100K and pocket the diffetrence. They just made $15K on your expertise and all they did was make a phone on your behalf! Talk about parasites. They are mo better than car salesman IMHO. I stopped using those thieves long ago. I deal will the company straight out and cut out the middle man. Most companies I hear from are also fed up with their crap as well.:-D
Staffing companies have to make money, too! 😉 I don't care if a staffing company makes twice what I make. What's important to me is how much I'm making, the "quality" of the job, the people at the job, and any benefits that may be available.
As a side bar, working for a staffing company is no different than working for any other company. Negotiate the rate before you start. If the rate or the job isn't good enough, it's time to move on.
Although there are some staffing companies that deserve the reputation of being the proverbial snake in the grass, the ones I've worked for have been kind, considerate, thoughtful, and the compensation has usually been better than I could have done on my own. Same goes for the jobs they've found me... absolutely top notch.
If your staffing company isn't doing the same for you, it's pork chop time for them. Just remember that it's a very small world and you should never burn any bridges.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
November 28, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Tim Mitchell (11/28/2010)
I'm in favor of talking about salary ranges early on, preferably before either party has spent significant time in the process (for example, during the initial phone screening). That being said, when asked about salary expectations, as a candidate I try to keep the range as wide as possible, because there's more to the job than how much is in your pay envelope. For example, a $100k job that requires an hour commute every day is not the same as a $100k job that's six blocks away (or six seconds away, for WFH positions).But to Jeff's point earlier, in *most* cases there is no harm in interviewing for a position you're unlikely to accept. It keeps you in practice as an interviewee, and a good interview that doesn't immediately result in an offer could plant a seed for something in the future.
I've been nicely surprised once or twice with "filler interviews" at the right companies. My current position resulted from one such interview: I interviewed for a decdedly short-term spot for me, which transformed into a decidedly different opportunity while I was talking to the dev manager.
Speaking of quality companies, this in my mind flows over to contracting organizations as well. I've encountered my fair share of snake oil salespeople from placement firms, but there are quality companies out there. Frankly, the meat market firms get away with their poor treatment because we *let* them: accepting shoddy (public) placements with poor support during the job followed by substandard understanding of your inidividual needs and talents just equates to the same level of service i can get on my own from Dice.com or any of the others.
If your firm doesn't provide the right level of support, then don't use them: find someone who WILL support you. You're the source of their income, so you can demand better than simply being herded about.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
November 29, 2010 at 7:12 am
This is a great editorial question. I was taught that the first one to mention money in an interview loses. I don't know that I totally agree with that statement.
There is lots of good advice in the comments here as well and I'll echo a few:
1. Know what your skills are worth in that particular geographic area and industry. Expect less from non-profit, government, and smaller companies.
2. If you have to mention what you are expecting use a broad ranges. I'd add that you should also frame it in terms of total compensation, not salary.
3. Don't be afraid to ask about the salary range, but also about benefits (health insurance, retirement, etc...). In some cases you may be better off taking a smaller salary for better benefits.
Whether I ask or not depends on my situation. If I'm unemployed and need to pay the bills I may ask just to have an idea, but I'm unlikely to turn down the job unless there are other things about the position that I don't like. If I'm employed and looking for an upgrade, I may let them know that we aren't a match as far as compensation goes and that I don't think we need to go any further in the process.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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November 29, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Money is a basic staple of the reason for the interview. For some it is of utmost import while for others it is a secondary thought. Regardless, the time spent by both interviewer and interviewee is valuable and should not be wasted because HR is too sheepish to perform their due diligence. I think the HR pre-screen should present the salary range and present the candidate with the information to determine if they wish to proceed or not. If HR hasn't done at least that much, I wouldn't even set up the interview until they have.
Then, if a formal interview is conducted, I'd bring it up again at the conclusion. This gives you a good feel for how important the subject is to your candidate and whether they are seriously entertaining your proposed salary range. Once the cards are on the table it is no longer such a difficult subject to tackle, for either party.
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