May 5, 2009 at 12:04 pm
lcardwell (5/5/2009)
Lynn Pettis (5/5/2009)
As I mentioned above, I have a CS degree. Would I say what I learned in my CS program was directly helpful to what I do today as a DBA, no.I had a supervisor at a previous employer who (jokingly, I know) said he kept me around for the 3 problems a year that occurred that his pure hardware and pure programmer people couldn't solve. I had the breadth of knowledge and experience to span the two and figure out some of the problems neither of them could solve alone.
LOL... I would posit that you had the breadth at least in part because of the material you were exposed to in obtaining the degree 😀
I would say that my experience and desire to learn helped me get my degree. I earned the BS 12 years after getting out of high school. The degree just added additional knowledge that I continue to develop today.
May 5, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Irish Flyer (5/5/2009)
As an aside, those who have a music degree have a tremendous advantage in the computer field, because music is nearly pure applied math, whether they were taught that way or not. Sets, pattern recognition, etc. are inherent in developing and understanding music.
Two of the best developers I know are both accomplished musicians.
Edit: And neither has a degree at this time.
May 5, 2009 at 12:17 pm
RBarryYoung (5/5/2009)
Rather than try to dismiss and invalidate other's opinions because their personal backgrounds and experiences might color their judgment, I think that we would all be better off to value and seriously consider each others viewpoints as being enhanced and informed by those same personal backgrounds and experiences.Your choice.
Please don't misunderstand, I in no way attempted to dismiss or invalidate anyone's opinion. Rather I (perhaps poorly) attempted to construct my thoughts (which are equally valued using the standards by which you describe) in some alignment with yours. I agree completely that its the diversity of backgrounds that culminate in a good DBA team.
I'm not sure I understand how my statement can be viewed as an invalidation of opinion. However I do understand that this area is a bit of a minefield to pass through, given the personalities. Therefore I respectfully apologize for any misunderstanding or offense this opinion may cause.
I guess what I'm trying to say in my dumbed down logic is... If you think having a CS degree makes you a better DBA, it probably does.
May 5, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Grant Fritchey (5/5/2009)
But with 20 years experience now in IT, if anyone is worried about what I did between 18 & 22 (Naval Nuclear Power) instead of what I've done for the last 20 years, I don't want to work there.For the record, no, film school doesn't translate to being a DBA at all, in any way. However, the Navy most certainly does. As a matter of fact, I suspect I learned more as a squid that's helped me throughout life than most people who have a degree learned in their four years of extended high school.
My brother was squid (nuke power), and trust me that speaks loads to me. The training required to work in one of the nuclear power rooms is extensive.
May 5, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Lynn Pettis (5/5/2009)
Irish Flyer (5/5/2009)
As an aside, those who have a music degree have a tremendous advantage in the computer field, because music is nearly pure applied math, whether they were taught that way or not. Sets, pattern recognition, etc. are inherent in developing and understanding music.Two of the best developers I know are both accomplished musicians.
Edit: And neither has a degree at this time.
Then how come I'm such a terrible musician? Apparently that skill set doesn't go both ways.;-)
May 5, 2009 at 12:59 pm
I have a Ba in Administration and Leadership and a Ma in Computer Resources and Information Systems Management. I am also an Oracle OCP. I spent 20 years in the Air Force as an Avionics Technician but spent 2 and a half of those years as a computer operator running a UNIVAC 1050-II Real Time System, that experience got me interested in computers. Once I retired I knew I was done fixing airplanes and my first and current job has been in IT. I was hired initially as a systems analysist taking care of a financial application. My employer decided they needed a full time DBA so they created the position, I applied for it and the rest as they say is history. One of the great things about being the first in this position, I did not have to undo anything and got to set things up the way I wanted.
May 5, 2009 at 1:01 pm
george sibbald (5/5/2009)
Its interesting that Brad asks what degree people have, rather than whether they have a degree or not, the presumption is IT people will have a degree, and I guess the really clever ones will have gone to university as a matter of course.
I limited the editorial to asking about "what degree you have" only to keep it shorter. I assumed that non-degree people would speak up. Unfortunately, many companies require a 4-year degree as the minimum requirement for a job. On the other hand, most companies don't require that the 4-year degree be in IT or CS if you want to be a DBA. In the DBA profession, experience is much more important than formal training.
Brad M. McGehee
DBA
May 5, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Two of the best developers I know are both accomplished musicians.
Edit: And neither has a degree at this time.
It is an interesting correlation... I was initially a music major... french horn, but played all the brass instruments. Also did well vocally... recorded several commercials, etc. Also have worked with some rather accomplished musicians who became DBA's/Programmers... all very good. Had the ability to grasp abstraction rapidly, and apply it with finesse. Truth is, I work to a harmonic... and am always trying to achieve it in both my own efforts, and corralling my team to do the same. Can you hear it?
Dr. Les Cardwell, DCS-DSS
Enterprise Data Architect
Central Lincoln PUD
May 5, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Jeremy Brown (5/5/2009)
This isn't to insinuate that a degree isn't useful, rather to make the point that any degree is a big comittment to your career in general. I think we'd be hard-pressed to find formally educated people who make the statement that it isn't needed or helpful.
I'm busy studying towards an M.Sc in Computer Science. It is in no way related to my career and I expect it will have absolutely no impact on my career.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 5, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Rob (5/5/2009)
I wonder how many people have actually made a choice to be a DBA? - Like 'I want to be a doctor, lawyer etc'
I have asked myself this same question. I really doubt there are any high school kids growing up who want to be a DBA. In fact, I didn't even now what a DBA was until shortly before I became one myself. Then I learned through self-training, trial and error, and persistence.
Brad M. McGehee
DBA
May 5, 2009 at 1:20 pm
I have been trying to understand this for a while now. A doctor, lawyer etc have somewhat generic/universal skills - not product specific skills. My problem with the DBA profession is the product rut associated with it and the time it takes to learn even that one product throughly (before which it is outdated again!). I dont' deny at all the value of experiential knowledge but as far as DBA profession goes experience on platform/version counts as much if not more than any generic experience. I have known people with all sQL Certifications under their belt with very little foundation knowledge of relational databases or even normalisation and they make as much as people with fundamental knowledge often times even more. Wondering what other people's experiences are in this regard. Thank you.
May 5, 2009 at 1:23 pm
malathi.mahadevan (5/5/2009)
Not sure if anyone has thoughts of retiring as a DBA? We are probably yet to meet people who have. The hassle of staying a DBA till retirement (to me) atleast is the demands of keeping up with technology and just the stress associated with the position like getting up at all hours and looking into issues. With a degree one can possibly get out of transactional DBA work into higher consulting decision making positions and with age that might be a necessity, not a choice, atleast for some of us.
Thanks for bring up this issue. How many of us "DBAs" plan to retire as DBAs?
Brad M. McGehee
DBA
May 5, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Brad M. McGehee (5/5/2009)
Rob (5/5/2009)
I wonder how many people have actually made a choice to be a DBA? - Like 'I want to be a doctor, lawyer etc'I have asked myself this same question. I really doubt there are any high school kids growing up who want to be a DBA. In fact, I didn't even now what a DBA was until shortly before I became one myself. Then I learned through self-training, trial and error, and persistence.
I find this ironic:
E.F. Codd, the father of relational databases, had a computer science degree. So it is only fitting that even those who don't have any degrees, or (like me) have degrees in non-CS fields, owe our jobs to someone who had a CS degree. And Codd himself probably never considered himself a "DBA" or thought about being one growing up, even though he launched the relational database industry on which DBAs depend. In many way, Codd's story represents the classic intersection of theory and practice that IT seems to exploit over and over again.
Apparently, Codd and IBM fought over the right way to implement his model, and are reported to have blocked some of Codd's ideas for business reasons:
IBM refused to implement the relational model in order to preserve revenue from IMS/DB. Codd then showed IBM customers the potential of the implementation of its model, and they in turn pressured IBM. Then IBM included in its Future Systems project a System R subproject — but put in charge of it developers who were not thoroughly familiar with Codd's ideas, and isolated the team from Codd[citation needed]. As a result, they did not use Codd's own Alpha language but created a non-relational one, SEQUEL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_F._Codd
So irony #2 is that we "relational" database programmers and DBAs use a language that has apparently long been derided by relational purists as violating the relational model.
I'm not sure what the moral of this story is, but I found it intriguing in light of the discussion topic.
- webrunner
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
May 5, 2009 at 1:39 pm
I'm a developer with B.A. in Psychology and A.A.S. in Computer Programming. The 4-year degree got me in the door and the 2-year degree gave me a clue as to what I was doing. However, I've really learned what I know on the job.
I started writing reports in SQR against an Oracle database. Now, I'm a database application developer using Visual Studio with SQL Server on the back end.
My schooling doesn't really make much difference these days. Now, I'm wondering about whether getting MS certifications is worthwhile. Maybe we could start another thread?:-P
May 5, 2009 at 1:40 pm
I've a BA in Philosophy, specializing in logic and analytics. I've also an MBA with an emphasis in Engineering Management.
I was offered a temp position as a sale administrator for a group of engineers the same day I received notice of a Graduation Assistant position for my Masters. This was also the same day I came home to find my front door lying in the living room. So - I took the real job, as I needed money to switch neighborhoods. I had to manage pending and current jobs, and realized there had to be a better way than Excel. I found Access, and well, you get the picture. I've now moved away from pure DBA and am a BI developer.
As for how the degree helped... In my case, the strong background in logic has been very helpful. But unless the HR person realizes that a Philosophy degree does not mean certain weeds and a bathtub (Donald Sutherland and Animal House), it was a useless piece of paper. Hence, the MBA. I was told by recruiters that without some technical or business degree, I wouldn't even considered. The MBA has really helped get through the first round of application questions.
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