May 15, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Oh, and my getting terminated was actually a blessing in disguise. I got the job I have now and don't spend 2.5 to 4 hours a day commuting back and forth 68 miles one-way (which I did for 15 years).
May 16, 2009 at 2:13 am
I thought this was about degrees, but I've been away from this thread for a few days. Discrimination most definitely occurs but it's not in any particular field. It depends on the closeness of the link between the skills of those hired and the effect on the hiring manager's own immediate, personal future. A good looking job candidate will nearly always have an edge over the unattractive. Someone is too white or too black, too patriotic or too foreign, too old or too anything, will rarely win out over someone who is "just right" in one of more of these non-DBA related areas. It happens among job seekers at all levels, regardless of whether new office is a small cube or a large oval. The only exceptions are when a job candidate's skill and work ethic are truly all that matter, and that doesn't happen often. Eventually the true skills and colors of the person hired come out, but only after those who did the hiring tried to get whatever it was they were after. It's called politics, and it's just about everywhere to whatever degree circumstances allow.
May 16, 2009 at 5:33 am
Immaterial. I have worked in both large and small organizations and the general make-up of the organizations have been largely equal. As I said, I haven't seen the discrimination you have seen.
I don't agree because women are for than fifty percent of the US population but is less than one percent of the people who transform companies because we our access is blocked.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it does. I have even seen it where the men have been discriminated against. Sorry I got fired from a job when someone else wouldn't (or couldn't) hold up her end of things and even received a bonus for the work I actually did prior to being terminated.
So you are a victim of reverse discrimination I now understand your sentiment and reasons, I don't think people who are not qualified should replace the qualified. I am talking of qualified people access blocked by unskilled privileged men, the person whom Microsoft fired if he was not working for Microsoft he will never be qualified as a programmer because his head was almost empty which also makes me question how he got a Cum Laude CS degree from Methodist university, he is still feeding on Microsoft contracts.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
May 16, 2009 at 7:32 am
Gift Peddie (5/16/2009)
Immaterial. I have worked in both large and small organizations and the general make-up of the organizations have been largely equal. As I said, I haven't seen the discrimination you have seen.
I don't agree because women are for than fifty percent of the US population but is less than one percent of the people who transform companies because we our access is blocked.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it does. I have even seen it where the men have been discriminated against. Sorry I got fired from a job when someone else wouldn't (or couldn't) hold up her end of things and even received a bonus for the work I actually did prior to being terminated.
So you are a victim of reverse discrimination I now understand your sentiment and reasons, I don't think people who are not qualified should replace the qualified. I am talking of qualified people access blocked by unskilled privileged men, the person whom Microsoft fired if he was not working for Microsoft he will never be qualified as a programmer because his head was almost empty which also makes me question how he got a Cum Laude CS degree from Methodist university, he is still feeding on Microsoft contracts.
First, I don't believe in reverse discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination regardless of who is the victim. I also don't believe that it is discrimination alone that results in fewer women in the IT field. I have three, extremely bright daughters (one of whom is graduating high school in a week) that want nothing to do with working in the IT field even though they all would be very good at it. You will find a simalar trend in the Electrical Engineering field. When I first started college at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs I was going for an Electrical Engineering major (they didn't have CS major at the time) and there were very few women in that program as well.
What needs to happen is that we, as professionals, need to encourage more women and minorities to seek degree programs (all levels) and careers in these fields if we are going to start seeing any real changes.
May 16, 2009 at 7:55 am
You will find a simalar trend in the Electrical Engineering field. When I first started college at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs I was going for an Electrical Engineering major (they didn't have CS major at the time) and there were very few women in that program as well.
I don't agree because I was raised by an electrical engineer at the time it was women are not welcome and one of the top advocate for the US math program is also a black woman with math PHD she thinks she was put in math instead of electrical engineering because she was a woman. I have met enough men with empty heads to be angry, the US Medicaid program paying a fulltime white male for six months writing compiling useless code.
I think Microsoft hired a brilliant man with conscience to replace him because their lawyers quantified the cost of keeping him. Companies have about 30% white men with empty heads who are nothing but sycophants qualified women can use just 5% of that. The US is not known to make voluntary changes for discrimination so I am going to talk until somebody do something about the Government contracts hiring men with empty heads.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
May 16, 2009 at 8:04 am
dpr (5/16/2009)
I thought this was about degrees, but I've been away from this thread for a few days. Discrimination most definitely occurs but it's not in any particular field. It depends on the closeness of the link between the skills of those hired and the effect on the hiring manager's own immediate, personal future. A good looking job candidate will nearly always have an edge over the unattractive. Someone is too white or too black, too patriotic or too foreign, too old or too anything, will rarely win out over someone who is "just right" in one of more of these non-DBA related areas. It happens among job seekers at all levels, regardless of whether new office is a small cube or a large oval. The only exceptions are when a job candidate's skill and work ethic are truly all that matter, and that doesn't happen often. Eventually the true skills and colors of the person hired come out, but only after those who did the hiring tried to get whatever it was they were after. It's called politics, and it's just about everywhere to whatever degree circumstances allow.
We are still talking about degree I am saying I prefer Microsoft tests which actually don’t qualify for degree because it is me and a machine which does not care about my race or sex. And yes I have seen people snigger about cheating to such people let me know where we can meet to take exams 70-445/6 and 70-547 C# with proctors. I like the tests for the same reasons the US Government dislikes them, impersonal and removed. However I suspected the machines in 2008 so I did not answer all the voluntary questions, I blame experience. Now if anyone knows any no human interaction required CS program let me know and then there is the pesky problem of cost so I need work study scholarship.
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/certified.mspx
😉
:Whistling:
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
May 16, 2009 at 8:12 am
We are not going to agree. The "discrimination" starts in education system, and is perpetuated from there. We as professionals and parents need to make the changes happen early. We need to encourage more women and minorities to seek careers where they have normally been discouraged. We need to work to change the attitudes of others around us by taking leadership roles and leading by example.
It truly comes down to this, personal responsibility. We have to take responsibility for what we do and what is going on around us. We need to do the encouraging, the mentoring of young people. We need to face the discrimination that is occurring when we see it (I haven't seen the discrimination you have been faced with, and even in my case it wasn't truly discrimination as much as my boss just didn't like me and was looking for excuses to get rid of me).
May 16, 2009 at 8:40 am
It truly comes down to this, personal responsibility. We have to take responsibility for what we do and what is going on around us. We need to do the encouraging, the mentoring of young people. We need to face the discrimination that is occurring when we see it (I haven't seen the discrimination you have been faced with, and even in my case it wasn't truly discrimination as much as my boss just didn't like me and was looking for excuses to get rid of me).
That is the reason I became the first active female moderator of most of the .NET base class langauges forums inluding C# general, but Microsoft deleted more than 1700 of my posts at the old site because I proved they hired programmers writing crappy code. And I also helped at least 5000 pass the C# base class exam 70-536 some of those people are women. I tossed out the crappy official book and replaced it with two very good books.
I also think Microsoft have a degree of discrimination but only let go of those that will affect the front, again I blame experience.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
May 17, 2009 at 8:29 pm
I doubt Microsoft discriminated here, more that I think they were trying to cover up poor programming. That would make more sense.
Not that there isn't discrimination. There still is, but this wouldn't seem to be what I'd consider discrimination on the basis of race, sex, age, or religion.
May 17, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Steve,
You are right but my reference to discrimination is because I was the only woman and the only person on the MSDN forums in both .NET and SQL Server whose MVP was not renewed. And the developer division pays for my MSDN subscription because the MVP program would not give me any and yes I was not alone but these are wrongs that needs to be corrected.
Call it people with power responsibility making changes because it is the right thing.
😉
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
May 17, 2009 at 9:20 pm
I'm not saying you're wrong, and the MVP program is a nebulous beast, but that doesn't sound like discrimination against you for being a woman. Maybe for other reasons, but there have been lots of female MVPs in all areas for some time.
May 17, 2009 at 9:30 pm
In the .NET languages I was the only person not renewed that was active on the .NET langauges and SQL Server in the Microsoft MSDN forums. Two years and no MSDN subscription I am human because I have not seen same oversight.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
May 18, 2009 at 7:31 am
Gift Peddie, I'm so sorry that you've had such a bad run of things. I also live in Texas where the rednecks do run wild, but I haven't had the same experience.
I'm in IT for a large state agency. There are lots of women in IT and women in high management positions. You might consider working for the state. We don't make as much as private industry, but it's a solid employment and discrimination is prohibited by law.
I don't know much about Microsoft, but I do know that a friend of mine got free training from them simply because she is a woman over 50. I thought that was pretty cool of MS.
May 18, 2009 at 8:00 am
Thanks for the kind words though I think development moves too fast for states IT needs. Staying current is very important to me, when I miss one version in .NET it will take a long time to get current.
🙂
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
May 18, 2009 at 8:20 am
Sing4you, which state do you work for??? 🙂 I worked for the state down south here and I wanted to get out in 3 months, it was so bad - the racism, gender bias, politics, anything but work gets done there. As for technology the less the said the better. To me the state is for people who really want job security at any cost. Atleast here it is worth nothing but that.
I know lots of women who are in senior positions though regardless. Women who play politics well and are thick skinned usually make it in the corporate world. Both women and men who are sensitive, value conscious and have high integrity always have a difficult time. The MVP issue is very regionalised. Out here it is an exclusive boys club and that excludes boys also who are not like them. There are many MVPs who are not that way and very interested in helping/promoting others, if you happen to be in their area then you are lucky that is all.
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