Do You Need an IT or CS Degree to be a Successful DBA?
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lcardwell (5/6/2009)
[...] most of those that struggle with the larger concepts are those that have great depth, but limited breadth [...]🙂
Like trying to explain to the silo owners why part of their information has become corporate global and "no, you don't own it any more, there are protocols to change global information that you need to accept in order to maintain the integrity of the company".
Some of the most scarily intelligent people I've met, who have flown through degree after degree, have made some of the most scarily bizarre decisions based on their ensilo'd (? can I say that) knowledge.
I realise it's just rephrasing what I said in an earlier post, but the need to know what is relevant and what is not relevant in making decisions has always struck me as being an innate part of the wiring we come equipped with, probably formally established (I'll go out on a limb here) by about age 5, not something that can be engendered by tertiary education.
So I guess I still agree with Cherie.
Peter Edmunds ex-Geek
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lcardwell (5/6/2009)
I spend a good deal of time 'splaining why certain processes/practices are important and getting folks to think 'out of the box'...Heh... my most difficult task has been to make people first recognize.... they're in a box. 😉
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
Jeff Moden (5/6/2009)
[...] my most difficult task has been to make people first recognize.... they're in a box [...]by having the
wldhrs (5/5/2009) [...] ability to dampen one's responses to a social environment to deal with the lack of bandwidth of the group average [...]
without calling them a ***** somewhere along the way?
:Whistling:
Peter Edmunds ex-Geek
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could the moderator perhaps add this emoticon
purely for the use of self indulgent individuals such as myself?
Peter Edmunds ex-Geek
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BS - Information Systems
MS - Information Systems
I've been a computer guy all my adult life, before home computers were even considered. I was one of those people who had a Radio Shack TRS-80.
I started as an assembler language programmer with a major airline. Through the years I've done everything from Assembler to VB, Java, web programmer, etc. I always ended up coming back to the data. It's what's always interested me most.
I don't think my degrees help too much for a couple of reasons.
1) IS curriculum is not geared towards DBA career paths.
2) My degrees came later in life. In other words I completed my education on the installment plan.
Bob McC
currently a data warehouse DBA for a large medical services company
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I, too, am without a degree. I changed my major 4 times in college beginning with criminal justice and ending with MIS. I left college 6 credit hours short of a bachelors degree. I had always thought that I went to school to get a job and I had gotten my foot in the door with a major banking software company as an entry level programmer. We started having kids and got busy, and I lost interest in going back to school. From there, I was able to quickly move up in pay and responsibility to where I was given UNIX servers to administer. On those UNIX servers were the company's databases so by default, I was a DBA (Oracle, Progress, SQL Server).
I moved from a company where I wore many hats to another banking software company where I focussed solely on SQL Server. I had already been exposed to SQL Server Central at company #1, but at this next company, SSC became my college education. I used the forums, articles and a SQL Server sandbox to learn everything I know today.
I left that company 1 month ago and I'm no longer a DBA =(. Leaving what I love was a hard decision, but as it turns out, my newest digs is going to utilize me as a SQL Server expert to model and architect a new environment to support several analytic groups.
So lookout, SQL Server.....I'm back!!
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BobMcC (5/7/2009)
I've been a computer guy all my adult life, before home computers were even considered. I was one of those people who had a Radio Shack TRS-80.Heh... rookie. 😉
--Jeff Moden
RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally) -
I was one of those people who had a Radio Shack TRS-80.
Me too, first computer I bought (and still got it 😀 ).
I started programming Assembler with it.
Far away is close at hand in the images of elsewhere.
Anon. -
Really, I think the IS degrees really prepare a person more for management than for work. It is good to know theory of all elements if you are a manager, but people down in the dirty I/O issues or architecture need experience. They just don't teach that in college.
I understand well enough why, they don't want to teach to any particular technology (unless it is open source), but you can't produce individuals with any knowledge unless they also do some internship or are geninuely interested in learning on their own. There are so many methods of getting the education out there, college just isn't up to the challenge yet.
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David Burrows (5/8/2009)
I was one of those people who had a Radio Shack TRS-80.
Me too, first computer I bought (and still got it 😀 ).
I started programming Assembler with it.
Yeah, I would spend hours typing in BASIC programs and saving them on to a cassette tape.
to my wife: "Look honey, I can make that white dot bounce across the screen!
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Hi Cherie, I do agree that no degree can substitute hard core experience but on the other hand there are degrees that teach technical basics, not just management basics and in the product driven IT culture sometimes that is a necessity. As a DBA I am not sure how many managers I have worked with who know the product well and have people skill but no idea of basics even things like normalisation. I do know folks who have that straight without a degree too but my issue with just experience is the product rut most people get into even w/o knowing sometimes.
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cherie j sheriff (5/8/2009)
There are so many methods of getting the education out there, college just isn't up to the challenge yet.Hmmm.... that's a pretty bold statement, and often what I've heard from those who haven't ran the course. These are the core courses for a traverse through BIT, MIT, DCS degrees... none of them were trivial, and I dare say most were sufficiently challenging and enlightening, even for a 20yr veteran of end-to-end IT/IS + 10yrs of business/finance...
BIT...
Introduction to Information Technology
Networking Operating Systems
Network O/S Administration
Data Modeling and Design
Database Administration
Beginning Programming
Advanced Programming
Web Applications
Advanced Network Administration
Strategic Management
MIT...
Enterprise Network Design
Object-Oriented Application Development
Database Design and Implementation
Introduction to Information Security
Cryptography Concepts
Special Topics in Network Security
Strategic Information Management
DCS...
Processes Methods and Environments
Experimental Design /Analysis
Simulation and Modeling Techniques
Foundations in Computer Science
Usability and Interaction
Advanced Topics in Database Systems
Requirements Engineering
Concurrent and Distributed Systems
System Metrics and Risk Analysis
Software Architecture and Design
Networking and Security
Futuring and Innovation
Dr. Les Cardwell, DCS-DSS
Enterprise Data Architect
Central Lincoln PUD -
Two more bits of empirical evidence in favor of having a degree, regardless of what area of study:
1) I've been told more than once that the fact that my masters comes from an Ivy League school got me to the top of the interview list, regardless of the fact that the degree is in an unrelated field. While I am sure that my skills and qualifications have been the deciding factor, the pedigree was an eyecatcher.
2) My honey, who has even more experience than I do, is just as good or better at what we both do, and is equally if not more intelligent than I, occasionally hits roadblocks in hiring because he does not have a degree. He has also been told at various jobs that he would NOT be considered for management because he doesn't have a degree, despite being a stellar performer as a technical architect/lead programmer.
--
Anye Mercy
"Service Unavailable is not an Error" -- John, ENOM support
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya in "Princess Bride"
"Civilization exists by geologic consent, subject to change without notice." -- Will Durant -
Anye Mercy (5/8/2009)
Two more bits of empirical evidence in favor of having a degree, regardless of what area of study:1) I've been told more than once that the fact that my masters comes from an Ivy League school got me to the top of the interview list, regardless of the fact that the degree is in an unrelated field. While I am sure that my skills and qualifications have been the deciding factor, the pedigree was an eyecatcher.
2) My honey, who has even more experience than I do, is just as good or http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Skins/Classic/Images/RichTextBoxTable/tbl_spacer.gifbetter at what we both do, and is equally if not more intelligent than I, occasionally hits roadblocks in hiring because he does not have a degree. He has also been told at various jobs that he would NOT be considered for management because he doesn't have a degree, despite being a stellar performer as a technical architect/lead programmer.
Anye,
While my MBA is not Ivy label, it has gotten me in the door for my last several jobs.
As far as your honey is concerned, unless he has issues with 'control' over his work environment, he may be grateful that he won't be considered for management since, even though he KNOWS he could do the job better than almost anyone else there, in terms of managing down, he won't be given the respect to allow him to do his job 'managing up' - and he would end up feeling frustrated and sabotaged.
Personally, I'd rather stay OUT of management. Too many anecdotes about the only thing a manager can do that a worker cannot is fire someone. Which means when someone is called on to prove they can manage, they have to sacrifice a worker - why is THAT fun?
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I won't deny having a degree, especially one from an ivy league school will get you in the first round of interviews. It is difficult to even get an interview if you do not have a degree regardless of how many years of experience you have. I have also had issues with people not wanting to move me to management due to my lack of degree, which is totally fine with me as I would not personally enjoy management as much as I do the work.
Personally I have never had trouble finding a position due to my lack of degree, just some of my choices won't interview me due to the lack of. They will hire me quick as a consultant on the side though to fix their issues.
But I would strongly be opposed to hiring someone who was less competent because they had a degree regardless of where it came from.
I am all for getting an education. It just takes more than what college has to offer to be a good DBA.
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