September 15, 2009 at 7:25 am
dma (9/15/2009)
Really - what you say a DBA is is something of a world standard then?? I am a little put off to be honest, your definition is yours and other people's is theirs...i told very clearly that these are highly variable and mostly company to company.What you and your fellow DBA think of my definition is of no concern to me whatsoever and does not change one bit how senior DBA definitions are perceived where I am. People skills with application team are a huge and very important part of a DBA role, most companies do not want geeky super smart people who do not get along with the rest of the world - they want good understanding to implement security and standards in a cordial way with few battles.
Please show some respect for where others are coming from even if you do not understand or agree. I will refrain from responding to you hereafter.
Disappointed in your reply and attitude, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I offered mine. sounds like you have no understanding on what i said. you said that a senior dba has very good people skills, I said that people skills (soft skills), is part of a dba role, nothing IMHO to do with being a senior dba. I have utmost repect for fellow dba's and you insult me by saying otherwise. I would work on your people skills as they are lacking in my opinion, if this is how you respond to an opinion that differs from your own.
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September 15, 2009 at 7:37 am
ok let me put it this way
1 I did explicitly say these definitions are company specifc, you made a claim that you and your fellow DBA do not agree with them. It really does not matter, and it sound highly opinionated to say so because the point as I understand is to compare and understand various definitions, not fly your opinionated flag on agreement or disagreement. Just fyi noone is going to change how they define these things because you or me disagree, it is what they need and support - not yours or mine.
2 On people skills - where I am and in some companies I know, a DBA works by the book somewhat. He takes instructions but his interaction with non DBAs particularly application teams is limited. A senior DBA is very involved in design reviews and instructing application guys on what to do.
I dont deny people skills are necessary at a basic level everywhere but the definition is set depending on who you deal with sometimes.
Lastly there is no generally accepted world norm. It is what we know and understand that various companies need and tailore our needs to that that is all. You can call yourself 'just a database guy' why do you even need a DBA title? These things only make sense with context and since you seemed to rip the context it came across as very opinionated.
September 15, 2009 at 8:53 am
dma (9/15/2009)
ok let me put it this way1 I did explicitly say these definitions are company specifc, you made a claim that you and your fellow DBA do not agree with them. It really does not matter, and it sound highly opinionated to say so because the point as I understand is to compare and understand various definitions, not fly your opinionated flag on agreement or disagreement. Just fyi noone is going to change how they define these things because you or me disagree, it is what they need and support - not yours or mine.
2 On people skills - where I am and in some companies I know, a DBA works by the book somewhat. He takes instructions but his interaction with non DBAs particularly application teams is limited. A senior DBA is very involved in design reviews and instructing application guys on what to do.
I dont deny people skills are necessary at a basic level everywhere but the definition is set depending on who you deal with sometimes.
Lastly there is no generally accepted world norm. It is what we know and understand that various companies need and tailore our needs to that that is all. You can call yourself 'just a database guy' why do you even need a DBA title? These things only make sense with context and since you seemed to rip the context it came across as very opinionated.
I like talking to you, we could discuss the finer points of this all day 😛
I based my comments on the part, where you said "where i work" maybe i took it wrong in which i was after your opinion and not the ethic which is in place at your workplace.
I agree with what you say, in that my opinion or anyone elses dont really matter to anyone else and it will not affect company policy. But everyones opinion is their own rulebook and they tend to be very biased towards it :-).
Regarding peoples skills, I have met a couple of people who are very, how can i say, I am master of the database and you know nothing lol. But on the whole dba's i have worked with are not in that minority. People skills are extremely important and without it, i certanity would not be employable, not only from the interview stage. but from the team interaction which is pretty much a given nowadays.
and to your last point, I could be classed opinionated but compared to some i know, I am extremely tame. Being a contract DBA means you are always alone, and expected to know everything, without a tough exterior (read opinionated :-P) you wont last long.
looking forward to your reply
Kind Regards
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September 15, 2009 at 9:20 am
Yeah I hear what you say on the 'know it alls'. We had one where i work just last week. This dude had 2005/2008 certs under his belt and was an MVP to boot. He came in while I was out and gave me boss a 40 page report on I/O issues with server - without even asking if we were on a SAN based system or not!! Charged a bunch of money and now we are fighting to get it back. There are lots who are like that, think they know all the details, wont' admit to a mistake easily. MVP certification somehow is something I am watchful about - i look for more evidence when i have spend money on a sql consulting gig - books, client referrals and so on, not just that. My boss learnt that the hard way.
Coming back to senior dba definitions - given the range of techologies within SQL Server itself, it is difficult to pin every one of them as a requirement.For example if you have not done database mirroring you may not know all the kinks of the technology. A Dba can probably admit to not knowing,a senior DBA on the other hand has to know comparative benefits of DB mirroring versus clustering or any othe technology he is experienced in.That is one example and one that i have experienced personally as a question. More later...
September 15, 2009 at 9:53 am
Coming into this discussion late..
I think the points about all the ancillary tech around SQL like SSRS, SSAS, and SSIS are pretty good, but I think we lost focus on what the acronym DBA stands for, DataBase Administrator. Now keep in mind all of the points I will be making are IMHO..
1. I would not call you a DBA if all you know is SSRS, SSAS, or SSIS, you are a subject matter expert on that tech.
2. A good (and growing knowledge) of the database engine is a must for being a DBA, junior or senior and everything in between.
3. If I were to define titles, I would use database engine knowledge as a base, followed by experience and demonstrated skills. The higher up you are the greater your knowledge, experience, skills, and problem solving ability.
4. I consider anyone with less than 3 solid years of day-in-day-out experience managing the database engine to be a junior, I would probably bend a little on this with other SQL experience. Over this it is HIGHLY subjective..
5. Having to look something up in BOL is not a negative, unless you have to do that for everything. You should know syntax for things you do often, I personally reference the CAST/CONVERT page often for date conversions..
6. Many of us could rate junior/mid/senior based on the posts that people make in the forum.
7. I *think* DBAs should have some development experience, its hard to provide good feedback or design guidance to a developer if all you have is theoretical knowledge.
Thats all I can think of right now..
CEWII
September 15, 2009 at 10:03 am
dma (9/15/2009)
Yeah I hear what you say on the 'know it alls'. We had one where i work just last week. This dude had 2005/2008 certs under his belt and was an MVP to boot. He came in while I was out and gave me boss a 40 page report on I/O issues with server - without even asking if we were on a SAN based system or not!! Charged a bunch of money and now we are fighting to get it back. There are lots who are like that, think they know all the details, wont' admit to a mistake easily. MVP certification somehow is something I am watchful about - i look for more evidence when i have spend money on a sql consulting gig - books, client referrals and so on, not just that. My boss learnt that the hard way.Coming back to senior dba definitions - given the range of techologies within SQL Server itself, it is difficult to pin every one of them as a requirement.For example if you have not done database mirroring you may not know all the kinks of the technology. A Dba can probably admit to not knowing,a senior DBA on the other hand has to know comparative benefits of DB mirroring versus clustering or any othe technology he is experienced in.That is one example and one that i have experienced personally as a question. More later...
Nice...
Dont really like to talk about mvp's that much. too many of them on the forums as it is *joking* :-P.
I could be totally wrong but gaining mvp is more of a networking thing then straight technical expertise *gears up for flaming from mvp's on forum*. by helping others and writing blogs and technical articles, founding user groups and the like, I know that some of them have technical abilities above the average dba, but have you wondered why a lot of mvp's are aged 25 or younger...
Funny you should mention about mirroring, in one of the last telephone interviews I had, i was asked what was better HA between mirroring and clustering. It is quite surprising some of the interview questions nowadays. Lot of them are what I would call infrastructure biased rather than straight how do you restore a database in this scenario.
I tend to be quite honest, I dont go for jobs using technology which I havent used before. For example I have never used OLAP or datawarehousing at a client. Doesnt mean that I am not technically astute enough to do it on the job and I could probably bluff my way into it. But that isnt how I operate.
Even on these forums as others have pointed out, there is a lot of bad advice given out by people who think they know about things and dont know.
That is why, coming back to the title of this topic, It puts me on guard, when people place great emphasis on either their title or certs, when making a point.
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September 15, 2009 at 10:15 am
Elliott W (9/15/2009)
Coming into this discussion late..I think the points about all the ancillary tech around SQL like SSRS, SSAS, and SSIS are pretty good, but I think we lost focus on what the acronym DBA stands for, DataBase Administrator. Now keep in mind all of the points I will be making are IMHO..
1. I would not call you a DBA if all you know is SSRS, SSAS, or SSIS, you are a subject matter expert on that tech.
2. A good (and growing knowledge) of the database engine is a must for being a DBA, junior or senior and everything in between.
3. If I were to define titles, I would use database engine knowledge as a base, followed by experience and demonstrated skills. The higher up you are the greater your knowledge, experience, skills, and problem solving ability.
4. I consider anyone with less than 3 solid years of day-in-day-out experience managing the database engine to be a junior, I would probably bend a little on this with other SQL experience. Over this it is HIGHLY subjective..
5. Having to look something up in BOL is not a negative, unless you have to do that for everything. You should know syntax for things you do often, I personally reference the CAST/CONVERT page often for date conversions..
6. Many of us could rate junior/mid/senior based on the posts that people make in the forum.
7. I *think* DBAs should have some development experience, its hard to provide good feedback or design guidance to a developer if all you have is theoretical knowledge.
Thats all I can think of right now..
CEWII
Hmm,
I could say straight away that SSIS, SSRS and SSAS are integral sql components and they are part of a DBA working suite. how would you consider DTS then ?.
1. A lot of people out there would argue that point with you, saying that they might not be titled as a dba but they do dba activities such as backup/restore activities as part of their work.
2. I agree with that so far.
3. not so sure abouyt this one, already mentioned this in previous posts. If a dba is restricted in what parts of sql managment he/she can do, does that mean he is junior, even though hee/she has been employed in that position for 10 years for example. I knew an investment banking dba, 11 years experience in that industry, knew nothing about reporting services. wasnt allowed to use it.
I used to work in the investment backing arena, the productions dba's were not allowed to do any development work, no login management, and nothing to do with either SSAS, SSIS or SSRS. you were not even allowed to do sql installs. does that make any of those junior.
4. might agree with that, but it is a personal thing. I know people who consider themselves snr with 3 years experience.
5. definitionally agree with that, I use BOL a lot of the time, to confirm things.
6. interesting point, where does that place me then lol
7. true but depends on the role, i know production dba's who cannot do any development, as it isnt in their interest or mindset.
might add to this tomorrow 😛
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September 15, 2009 at 10:19 am
I think the MVP politics is subject for another discussion...just mentioned it casually :)) Yeah like you am wary of the titles + certs too although I give more to certs than I do to titles. Nowadays I watch for negativity around certs too, it is sort of an 'in' thing - and somehow it indicates person is stuck (sometimes). Anyway that too another discussion...
There are lot of gray areas between 'bluffing' your way into a position and not knowing anything about a technology. It depends 1 how much room the organisation has to people to learn on the job 2 how many technologies they are looking for and in which order/priority. That is one thing i have worked out with my boss - we use Clustering along with basics of administration, we have some SSRS and SSIS and the administration of both often falls to us like we dont write actual reports but have to know how to set up SSRS and we dont write SSIS packages either but have to know monitoring and occasional troubleshooting, and we do lot of database design and application reviews so Query writing and troubleshooting skills are most important. After ranking requirements my boss figured he could give some room for someone to learn clustering as long as he/she knows what it is and has worked on other technologies, can handle the rest and of course, has good people skills. In another organisation it is a different set of must haves and compromises. But nobody gets a tailor fit for their needs. Always say you can learn and present yourself as a good fit for their other needs and there are chances you might get it.
September 15, 2009 at 10:35 am
Silverfox (9/15/2009)
Hmm,I could say straight away that SSIS, SSRS and SSAS are integral sql components and they are part of a DBA working suite. how would you consider DTS then ?.
1. A lot of people out there would argue that point with you, saying that they might not be titled as a dba but they do dba activities such as backup/restore activities as part of their work.
3. not so sure abouyt this one, already mentioned this in previous posts. If a dba is restricted in what parts of sql managment he/she can do, does that mean he is junior, even though hee/she has been employed in that position for 10 years for example. I knew an investment banking dba, 11 years experience in that industry, knew nothing about reporting services. wasnt allowed to use it.
I used to work in the investment backing arena, the productions dba's were not allowed to do any development work, no login management, and nothing to do with either SSAS, SSIS or SSRS. you were not even allowed to do sql installs. does that make any of those junior.
4. might agree with that, but it is a personal thing. I know people who consider themselves snr with 3 years experience.
6. interesting point, where does that place me then lol
7. true but depends on the role, i know production dba's who cannot do any development, as it isnt in their interest or mindset.
I see DTS on par with SSIS as it relates to your question..
They may be integral components but I am making a distinction between USING a database server and BEING a database server. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, so be it. But you can use the database engine without any of them except SSIS, and you can use the database engine without that if you use some technology other than maintenance plans.. Integral? Integrated maybe..
1. I can see your point, as in previous posts this is somewhat subjective, I would not call you a DBA though, thats me.
3. If you know the DB engine WELL and can solve most problems, big and small, that goes a long way towards senior. If your environment doesn't allow a lot of growth, well.. Again subjective..
4. If they had 10yrs of development experience in databases and 3yrs of DBA, maybe, but I don't believe you can get enough knowledge and experience in 3yrs to be a senior DBA. And when I was involved in hiring in my last gig, if you only had 3yrs you would almost certainly not be looked at for a solid senior position. What I mean by solid senior is that we post a senior and mean it, not willing to settle for a midrange DBA.
6. I haven't considered this in regard to you, I was thinking Jeff Moden, GSquared, and GilaMonster.
7. What they do in their current role is not the question. It was the same when I had profs in school (all those years ago) who had NEVER worked in the real world, their knowledge was from books, all theoretical. The ones that I had who either were or had worked outside of academia where the best because they could provide real world examples. I have been programming since the early 80's and have been working with databases since 1994, I have seen some of my early code and cringe, it was horrible, but those experiences have put me in a position today that I can evaluate a solution and while I may or may not agree with all of it, still offer constructive suggestions to make it more efficient, or just better. I can also see a solution for the maintenance nightmare it WILL BE.. This all comes from experience.
When hiring I always took demonstrated experience over certifications and degrees.
CEWII
September 16, 2009 at 2:37 am
dma (9/15/2009)
I think the MVP politics is subject for another discussion...just mentioned it casually :)) Yeah like you am wary of the titles + certs too although I give more to certs than I do to titles. Nowadays I watch for negativity around certs too, it is sort of an 'in' thing - and somehow it indicates person is stuck (sometimes). Anyway that too another discussion...There are lot of gray areas between 'bluffing' your way into a position and not knowing anything about a technology. It depends 1 how much room the organisation has to people to learn on the job 2 how many technologies they are looking for and in which order/priority. That is one thing i have worked out with my boss - we use Clustering along with basics of administration, we have some SSRS and SSIS and the administration of both often falls to us like we dont write actual reports but have to know how to set up SSRS and we dont write SSIS packages either but have to know monitoring and occasional troubleshooting, and we do lot of database design and application reviews so Query writing and troubleshooting skills are most important. After ranking requirements my boss figured he could give some room for someone to learn clustering as long as he/she knows what it is and has worked on other technologies, can handle the rest and of course, has good people skills. In another organisation it is a different set of must haves and compromises. But nobody gets a tailor fit for their needs. Always say you can learn and present yourself as a good fit for their other needs and there are chances you might get it.
I find your post really interesting, it highlights the fact that in some companies, there are very clear lines on what technologies the dba team use or or have access to. there doesnt seems to be a 'dba who does everything' and yet job opportunities say that they want you to be able to do everything.
It reminds me of a job, that was posted on quite a few blogs a while back, where people thought it was a joke, but the job was real. they wanted sql server and oracle and linux and shell scripting and sybase would be nice as well, and expert knowledge in all technologies mentioned. the funny thing was, i was a pretty close match for it lol. didnt bother applying, was in work at the time.
thinking about it, most dba's that I know tend to specialise in different aspects of sql server, where I am the opposite, my knowledge is quite broad. jack of all trades master of none as they say. which helps me a lot i suppose. like Grant has mentioned in his post, I dont want to be a expert in any one technology, my strengths are in my broad knowledge and has kept me working so far.
You mentioned Reporting Services in your post, I used to do everything with SSRS including writing reports and full administration and yet like you said, depending on the company, you might never use it. We have 2005 and 2008 reporting servers where i am at the moment and report buider 2.0 and 3.0, some of the dev teams create their reports, we dont do that but we have the skills.
maybe I have been lucky in my contracting career, I used to part of the domain admin group at some clients, so i have done basically wintel (server admin duties) as well as DBA. Personally I think you get more exposure to other technologies and more freedom being contract rather than being fulltime. what do you think?
I have met a few senior dba's in my time, 4 of them immediately come to mind.
One used to be an oracle dba, and when he started this new role at a previous client, he told them he was a senior dba, his boss to be, didnt agree. However he got the job and the title.
another one was a team lead, also titled as senior dba, knew nothing about SSIS or SSRS. used to be a developer. knew development very well and sql pretty well.
another one, knew sql server very well and people came to here to ask him questions myself included, he did deserve the title
I used to know a lady who was a team lead, 13 years experience, she really knew her stuff. Not really met her like since. She moved on from that company, hope she is enjoying her new role.
anyways I am sure that we all know people who deserve the snr title or maybe like me, you think the title is an emblishment and means very little, when it can be earned very easily in some organisations.
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September 16, 2009 at 8:18 am
My first three DBA jobs were at 'know it all' places where I did pretty much everything - server set up, maintanence, loading data, sometimes even scrubbing data, promoting code, and being there when they call me. I got tired of it to be honest. I learnt a little here and a little there, yeah as you say jack of all trades perhaps but none of it was sufficient enough to land me a position that paid significantly more than what I did. What actually got me the position am in now was that i knew how to write and tune queries well and that happened to be on their list of priorities. In other words, an application DBA. Now not only do i know query tuning am good at clustering, server maintenence and of course small tasks that come along like setting up SSRS and basic SSIS. I am not spread out too thin. I think Certs are a good baseline to evaluate yourself - if you want to see where you fit in. If you grab the blue study guides (even if you dont intend to go for the exam) - if you know more than 60% of the stuff you are probably reasonably ok for a DBA/Database developer/BI Developer position depending on which book are you looking at.
As far as freedom goes on full time positions versus contracts - I really dont know i think it is personal largely - in US the type of jobs you mention (do-it-all DBAs) are very rarely contracted out. Contracts are given to specific projects like conversion projects or something that has a timeline, generally. Plus we have to pay our own healthcare, we dont get paid for vacation and we have to do our own training. It is too many trade offs for me. Of course if you get up to be a niche-consultant the money takes care of all that but am not one yet :))
September 16, 2009 at 9:23 am
Just a quick reply as i am curious, what sort of rates do contract staff tend to get stateside. the average here, if i do the conversion right, would be about $500-820 a day and that can be for standard production work, you can get higher than that if you have the relevant skills that are in demand. I know that the cost of living in the US is lower than the UK. but i am curious though, what hourly or daily rates are on average for production dba's.
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September 16, 2009 at 9:29 am
Depending on your skill set and the cost of living factor it can be anywhere between $40 to $200 an hour. Contractors get paid by the hour, not daily. The cost of living factor does not apply to niche contractors who charge the same wherever they go.Plus they also have a minimum days they want the contract to be. The low-enders settle more for duration and some cases technology. I know a guy settled for more than $50 less to be on a DTS to SSIS conversion so that he could learn and put that on his resume.
September 16, 2009 at 9:36 am
Do you mean the guy doing the work or the company that provides a contractor?
I used to bill $100/hr in 2001/2002 time frame as a senior guy for work I did myself. However I did some work for a company, they paid me $75, billed me out at $200 around the same time.
September 16, 2009 at 9:41 am
dma-669038 (9/16/2009)
Depending on your skill set and the cost of living factor it can be anywhere between $40 to $200 an hour. Contractors get paid by the hour, not daily. The cost of living factor does not apply to niche contractors who charge the same wherever they go.Plus they also have a minimum days they want the contract to be. The low-enders settle more for duration and some cases technology. I know a guy settled for more than $50 less to be on a DTS to SSIS conversion so that he could learn and put that on his resume.
Damn... I knew i was underpaid 😛
lol, Now I know why so many people in the US want to be a DBA 😀
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