Do the certifications add value?
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We spread them out. We looked for relevant details that showed for work experience similar to what we were hiring for. We looked for folks who weren't jumping jobs.Sometimes I spent my lunch break with the girls from the HR department (only because they sit next to us!).
They told me, that a person who has done totally different jobs in his professional career has no disadvantage per se compared to someone who went straight ahead his professional way. The former person mostly has a broader knowledge, broader experience as the latter.
Depending on the job you apply for, this can be a huge advantage.
Frank
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Frank Kalis
Microsoft SQL Server MVP
Webmaster: http://www.insidesql.org/blogs
My blog: http://www.insidesql.org/blogs/frankkalis/[/url] -
I don't think the certified person will get the benefit. I just see that, the person, who has a knowledge will be get the earlier priority than other.
Prashant Thakwani
Prashant Thakwanithakwani_prashant@yahoo.co.in
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Sometimes I spent my lunch break with the girls from the HR department (only because they sit next to us!).They told me, that a person who has done totally different jobs in his professional career has no disadvantage per se compared to someone who went straight ahead his professional way. The former person mostly has a broader knowledge, broader experience as the latter.
Depending on the job you apply for, this can be a huge advantage.
"Jumping jobs" as it spending 3 months here, 6 months there, 3 months at the next job, etc. The work experience shows one of several possibilities we didn't want to get into:
(1) The person appeared competent at initial hiring but as the companies got to know him his experience was lacking and he was let go.
(2) The person was always looking for the next bigger, better paycheck, meaning any possibility of our retaining the person was limited at best.
(3) The person did not "play well with others" and though technically competent, clashed to the point where he was let go.
Of course, there may have been viable reasons why a person would transfer jobs so much and we'd inquire discretely of the person in the cases like this, but typically it seemed to be more of 1 and 2 as we dug a little deeper.
K. Brian Kelley, GSEC
http://www.truthsolutions.com/
Author: Start to Finish Guide to SQL Server Performance Monitoring
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley -
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"Jumping jobs" as it spending 3 months here, 6 months there, 3 months at the next job, etc.Which then begs the question - How long should a candidate have between jobs? I would think between two and five years would be ideal. More than five years in the same position would be a warning sign to me, unless that person has continued to challenge himself.
(read in the Church Lady voice from SNL)
And how do you show motivation and aggresive pursuit of new skills? Could it be... CERTIFICATION!!!
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... More than five years in the same position would be a warning sign to me, unless that person has continued to challenge himself.And how can you tell without an interview?
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* Noel -
I didn't have time to read all these posts (true confessions), so at the risk of being repetitive, let me add my 0.02: in my opinion, certifications can help you get an *interview* sometimes. If there is an entry-level DBA position, where the applicants don't have much experience, then certainly the resume(s) with certifications may get some attention. Even when it comes to distinguishing between reasonably experienced applicants, the certification shows that you're willing and able to keep yourself learning. On the other hand, I've just been through a pile of resumes (not a DBA job), and the few applicants that were certified didn't benefit from it at all - their certifications just weren't relevant to what we were looking for.
Other places that certs help include if you want to be an author. I've written one book and a bunch of exams (the exams pay better!) and some publishers insist that you have Certification X to write on Topic Y.
Like I said, I hope I'm not just repeating ideas others have had.
Happy New Year to all!
Chris
Edited by - chrisleonard on 12/31/2003 3:10:25 PM
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"Jumping jobs" as it spending 3 months here, 6 months there, 3 months at the next job, etc. The work experience shows one of several possibilities we didn't want to get into:(1) The person appeared competent at initial hiring but as the companies got to know him his experience was lacking and he was let go.
(2) The person was always looking for the next bigger, better paycheck, meaning any possibility of our retaining the person was limited at best.
(3) The person did not "play well with others" and though technically competent, clashed to the point where he was let go.
Of course, there may have been viable reasons why a person would transfer jobs so much and we'd inquire discretely of the person in the cases like this, but typically it seemed to be more of 1 and 2 as we dug a little deeper.
Sorry, I understood 'job jumping' different.
I thought of a person who has, for example, done car washing, served as a waiter and now is doing DBA. An extreme example, I know, but something in this direction.
As for (1):
That risk you'll always have. You cannot see behind the face. Not sure if you something similar over there, but here, depending on your position you're applying for, you have a time period of up to one year, in which both employee and employer can end the employment contract within a very short time frame of maximal two weeks, IIRC. And also here (in my company) it is said that a person reaches full potential and that way becomes most valuable for the company after working two years in a position. Although this doens't mean that you have two years time before you can start to work 🙂
As for (2):
Again an immanent risk! The employer has to provide an attractive environment to commit the employees to himself. This isn't only limited to the payment, but includes all working conditions. And this does not only apply in times of good overall economic shape.
As for (3):
I for myself am glad to see that the time for lone fighters is over, if it was ever there. I couldn't work for a company where I couldn't deal with my coworkers and/or management. That's the reason I left the software company I was working for before my current job. I was starting to hat each morning I had to go to work. And that's no good premise.
A team usually is more than the sum of its parts.
Frank
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Frank Kalis
Microsoft SQL Server MVP
Webmaster: http://www.insidesql.org/blogs
My blog: http://www.insidesql.org/blogs/frankkalis/[/url] -
This has become something of a general hiring thread and is interesting.
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As for (1):That risk you'll always have. You cannot see behind the face. Not sure if you something similar over there, but here, depending on your position you're applying for, you have a time period of up to one year, in which both employee and employer can end the employment contract within a very short time frame of maximal two weeks, IIRC.
Here (Virginia, USA, and most states here) employment is generally "at will", which means either can end employment for no reason with virtually no notice. Lots of exceptions exist, e.g. union contracts (generally do not apply to technical positions) and companies must follow fairly uniform policies, and mass layoffs are federally regulated in some ways).
In that environment I think many people still look on repeated jobs, same basic position, as indicating a problem. In good economic times or bad, changing jobs occasionally is not bad (may even be good), but someone who averages (say) a new job every 12 months has some kind of problem that is NOT the employer's (since if you look at say 5 years history there are 5 employers).
Maybe they are always shopping for the next better thing, maybe they are so hard to get along with no one can put up with them longer. Regardless, as an employer it makes them look like they are not going to be a good long term contributor.
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Ah yes, I forgot your almost non existent dismissals protection
.It could also be viewed from exactly the opposite point of view:
5 jobs -> 5 years -> Suspect (troublemaker?). If you ever make it to an interview, you'll surely need a shellproof rationale for this behaviour.
When I started here our CEO had the opinion that everyone is free to do what he wants. If he wants to leave, so it may be...
He had to change his mind and so our HR policy in general, when he realized that finding new people who know their job and how to use it in our environment was not that easy as he thought.
Frank
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Frank Kalis
Microsoft SQL Server MVP
Webmaster: http://www.insidesql.org/blogs
My blog: http://www.insidesql.org/blogs/frankkalis/[/url] -
I appoligize for the delayed reply.
Is taking a test common? Yes, thats why I expect to take one. For more than 1/2 the interviews I've taken a test was required. Some were canned tests, others written. Some on a terminal, others on paper. I prefer not to take an oral test as its too informal and most of the time its just a "do you know what I know" kind of situation, thats not a good way to start a working relationship.
Yes, these were all large orgs.
-Isaiah -
In the past when I've given oral tests, I tended to ask open-ended questions on purpose. The reason being I wanted to see your reasoning process. This through a couple of candidates for a loop. The one we hired, however, showed a very methodical and logical method for developing his answer, though it differed slightly from either the one I or my manager would have come up with. As a candidate I had one interview where the guy asked a lot of open-ended questions and I was able to demonstrate the same sort of thing. It's ultimately what got me hired with my current firm. Wow. It's been 4 years. A little hard to believe but it is true.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley -
When I interviewed for the job I have now (Database Administrator) back in Jan. 2000, I didn't have my SQL certification yet (I do now). The CTO did comment that he would have preferred it if I had of had the certification then, but I aced his "test" that he gave me, so it worked out okay for me.
His test was that he told me to design a database system for a library to track users, books, and transactions. He had me design it on a big chalkboard and explain my logic as I did it.
I know that the DB Engineer hired that week was certified many times over and was not asked to take a test at all.
It has paid off for me because my company gave me a $1000 bonus when I got my first certification.
My blog: SQL Soldier[/url]
SQL Server Best Practices: SQL Server Best Practices
Twitter: @SQLSoldier
My book: Pro SQL Server 2008 Mirroring[/url]
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, Data Platform MVP
Database Engineer at BlueMountain Capital Management[/url] -
I like to see certifications, but they aren't what I base my final opinion on. Case in point, I was asked to sit in and give the technical portion of an interview for someone we'll have support IIS, FrontPage, and some of the custom built apps we support in house. Here is what I saw...
The interviewee wasn't a senior in any skillset but also didn't pretend to be. The interviewee expressed a commitment to learn whatever was required to do the job. Though the interviewee didn't possess any certs, after a few questions it was easy to determine the interviewee had a solid foundation of the basics for the job. There would have to be some OJT required to bring this particular candidate up-to-speed, but there looked to be something to build on.
The interviewee had excellect communication skills. During the interview, the interviewee was clear, articulate, and enthusiastic. The interviewee took the time to ask for clarification. The interviewee didn't get ruffled when asked to clarify. The interviewee was to the point and didn't ramble. The interviewee answered the questions directly and didn't try and step around any.
The biggest selling point for this particular interviewee was a team-oriented attitude. The interviewee preferred to work with people, not around them. Another thing I saw is the interviewee didn't consider any job or role too small. In other words, if the interviewee needed to do grunt work to keep a project moving forward, that would be perfectly fine. I asked questions about previous projects and there were indications the interviewee had often done this in the past.
This candidate was made an offer because the manager doing the interviewing also saw the same things. If the candidate had certifications I would have started with the same sorts of questions. I can still remember the MCDBA I interviewed who swore SQL Server had to run under a domain admin account (who looked baffled when I asked how could it possibly run in a workgroup and responded with, "I don't think it can."). No offer was made to that one.
Ultimately, if you have the all-around skills necessary, someone is going to take a chance on you. The certifications will get you in some doors you can't get in without, so I'm not denying their value. However, the cert alone, as we've often said, isn't the key. The cert combined with experience and knowledge is the best situation to be in.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley -
After the words wrote by Brian Kelley, I think there's not more to write.
Thanks, Brian!
Kindest Regards,Giuliano Camarini de Oliveira
agnitia.com.br -
we just interviewed a potential DBA who had just passed his mcp for w2k server ( 2 weeks ) he didn't know how to configure w2k to allow sql server to use memory above 2Mb
honestly I don't know what the syntax is but I know where to look for it. Can you hire me?
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