October 8, 2010 at 8:29 am
This was a good series. With regards to this latest entry that raised the 'problem' of sex, love, and emotion, I think that those are some very deep roots to dig out. Personally, I'm not convinced that we can--or should--dig them out.
I'm a firm believer that love is rare enough that it should be embraced and fostered everywhere it's found. That's not to say one should go looking for love at work, but I don't think anybody should be surprised if it happens to show up. We spend a lot of time together at work. Presumably we share common interests and goals, so it's pretty much inevitable that people become friends and, by extension, fall in love.
Quite apart from the fact that where there is love there is likely to be sex, sex is probably one of the few true instincts humans retain. Certainly, relationships need to be pursued mutually and with respect and even restraint, but I don't see how it's possible to prevent sexual relationships from developing at work. Or anywhere, for that matter. I'm not saying that we should be going to work so that we can pursue sexual relationships, but when people spend large amounts of time together pursuing common goals, it's pure fantasy to think that relationships can be prevented.
October 8, 2010 at 9:07 am
Steve, this was a great series of articles. I think everyone (not just IT professionals) should read these.
There was one thing I didn't see addressed (or maybe it was, and I missed it). Most workplaces (as far as I know) have sexual harrassment policies dictacted to us (for good reason) at HR orientations. I realize this is a slippery slope and difficult to address (as most controversial topics are). As a guy, I am admittedly biased about these issues (not saying this in a negative sense; I'm just saying this is what is), and will probably never fully understand them simply due to the point of view from my gender. It would've been interesting to read a woman's take on some of these issues.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Check out my blog at https://pianorayk.wordpress.com/
October 8, 2010 at 9:21 am
Then there's sex. No one touched on it this week, but sex, love, emotions evoked by others are a part of our workplace. They shouldn't be, but how can you get away from it?
Why do you think 'they shouldn't be'? One of the most significant changes that the introduction of women into the professional sphere of life has brought to the workplace (and other areas of society) is the addition of emotions, emotional intelligence, and richer, more nuanced and more mature psychological understandings of people and their interactions. Love and sex have always been part of the workplace -- precisely because they are a part of life, and the workplace is a subset of life -- and now society and the workplace are increasingly expected to feature a broader range of emotions, in a more mature way, and in a way that is not skewed to the advantage of men. I think a more mature world is one that features reduced segmentation of peoples' lives (in the sense that in the workplace emotional relationships are forbidden, while at the gym, for example, they are alright).
October 10, 2010 at 10:56 am
erwin.oosterhoorn (10/8/2010)
I am getting intrigued now, Jeff removed his comment twice...
Actually, just once. I hit {QUOTE} instead of edit during the first edit and it spawned another post instead of editing the first one.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 10, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Actually this whole series of posts has been disappointing. The editorials have come from a place with an unthinking acceptance of male privilege so that women can be tolerated in the workplace as long as they work just the same as any male, or react just the same as any male. Women shouldn't expect to have anybody take account of the societal expectation that they take the lion's share of child-raising - this is apparently a 'choice' and they can just suck it up.
From today's editorial, men are 'physically superior'. O rly? In the sense of greater physical power and speed definitely: in the sense of greater physical dexterity and body control? Not so much - but we won't count gymnastics or dance as a 'real' sport that 'we' bond in as youths because, 'we' are not so good at those.
Honestly, I expected that the caricature of IT males as being blind to anything outside their narrow world was annoying, but not really true. But here I am seeing nothing but a blithe acceptance that the male-dominated IT industry is fine as it is and that women should just try and fit in. No wonder women avoid the industry like the plague as apparently their reluctance to turn into 'men like us' is their own fault.
If you really want to get women in the industry, and gain the benefits from the different ways of working they can bring, then we as men need to change and to really look at how we have built an industry which utterly favours the young single man's POV.
October 11, 2010 at 7:24 am
If you really want to get women in the industry, and gain the benefits from the different ways of working they can bring, then we as men need to change and to really look at how we have built an industry which utterly favours the young single man's POV.
In a professional organization what matters is the ability to do the work and work well with others. In a good professional organization family and children are considered. In a great organization, everyone is considered.
In my career, I've experienced a wee bit more hardship as a single male than your stereotype. In my department and the one we support, there have been more than a dozen children born in the last few years. I'm expected to cover for those with children and spouses and since I'm on salary I don't receive any additional pay for the extra work. (Nor much thanks.) And since I worked lots of additional hours, it made it difficult to pursue professional or personal goals. Now that I'm engaged, I get treated better. (WTF?!) :angry:
Everyone should be respected and rewarded for their work regardless of their gender, martial status, family status or age. There is still a lot of work to be done in the workplace.
October 11, 2010 at 8:38 am
gtho (10/10/2010)
Honestly, I expected that the caricature of IT males as being blind to anything outside their narrow world was annoying, but not really true. But here I am seeing nothing but a blithe acceptance that the male-dominated IT industry is fine as it is and that women should just try and fit in. No wonder women avoid the industry like the plague as apparently their reluctance to turn into 'men like us' is their own fault.If you really want to get women in the industry, and gain the benefits from the different ways of working they can bring, then we as men need to change and to really look at how we have built an industry which utterly favours the young single man's POV.
I'm not sure how you got this view. It seemed to me that most of the editorial writers were asking for men to change and learn to tolerate women and other viewpoints. More than a few of the people adding to the discussion have said that women should "act in more direct ways" to be treated better, which I was disappointed in. It says that we want them to change the way they act to be taken more seriously.
I would agree that we as men need to change how we view the world. It isn't all about hard charging, be loud and negotiate harder. There also is an aspect of learning to listen and tolerate other views and approaches.
October 11, 2010 at 9:10 am
Men and women communicate differently. That is not going to change. We all need to speak and understand the "foreign" language of the other sex. I did not hear anyone advocating for women to speak "men", but that view might have been limited by the "language" 🙂 I speak.
"act in more direct ways" - This is NOT a gender thing. Both genders and many of them need to be more direct and truthful in their dealings with others of the same and different gender.
<><
Livin' down on the cube farm. Left, left, then a right.
October 11, 2010 at 9:35 am
Tobar (10/11/2010)
Men and women communicate differently. That is not going to change. We all need to speak and understand the "foreign" language of the other sex. I did not hear anyone advocating for women to speak "men", but that view might have been limited by the "language" 🙂 I speak.
It wasn't in this discussion, but in one or two of the others. Someone was really pushing for women to change the way they approach, even changing speech patterns.
October 11, 2010 at 9:46 am
Must have missed that exchange. Guess I should have reviewed the posts and not assumed I knew what was going on. How typically male of me! 😀
On Review: Yep I skimmed those articles. "Looks like I picked a bad day to stop paying attention!" [with apologies to "Airplane!"]
<><
Livin' down on the cube farm. Left, left, then a right.
October 11, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Excellent followup article Steve, and JenMidnightDBA, where do I find your blog?
I don't think sex is the concern that someone also pointed out of relationships, and possibly preventing them. They were correct, this simply isn't possible.
I think this comment is more pointed at fear. It's the rebutted relationships that are fire. No one ever wants to think that they are treated different because of how 'attractive' they are to one person or another. I think we have all heard someone somewhere say 'I wonder who they slept with to get that job/raise/benefit'. And because women are the smaller percentage of workers in this industry (by alot), odds are very high that any women has to deal all the time with men that just want sex. I shudder to think what they must put up with at conferences and such.
15 years ago in the construction industry, when we had to hire office staff. Reception jobs were always women and the hiring manager's rule was 'no pretty girls', otherwise none of the men would get their jobs done. Where does one put "I'm not pretty" on your resume'?
This kind of thing is exactly the argument for eliminating any relationships beyond friends as a business requirement. That way, no one would fear being hit on, or rebutted, or pretty enough or any other such thing. Is it possible. I doubt it. And yes, some men get hit on too, just far fewer, but that doesn't make it right either.
This all goes along with the rule of don't talk about Politics or Religion at work. Add Sex to the list. Might as well put in 'everyone should just get along' too. Peace on Earth...etc.
My experience. There is a woman that our company deals with once a year as a consultant. I'm a VERY happily married man, but when I'm in the same room with her, my heart beats faster. I can't help it. It's got to be a pheromone thing. Did she do anything? she pretty much ignored me, which is what I would have expected, per her task with the company. Is it her fault? No. Did I treat her differently? Subconsciously, probably, I think I even answered a few questions that weren't even directed at me :hehe:. What can I do about it? I've excluded myself from any future meetings with her, unless my input is specifically requested. What can be done about it by an HR department? That is the million dollar question.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
(edited for a typo)
October 11, 2010 at 3:38 pm
I'd also like to add that many of the differences pointed out here are just behaviors. Behaviors can be exhibited by any gender, and being an idiot or a jerk or a push over, or even incompetent are just as prevalent by 'professional' men as women. That is about the type of person they are (natured or nurtured) not the gender.
Just think of how different things would be if the male ego could be taken out of the equation? The lies, the blame, the cover ups. It's much better to have a few women in those 'post mortem' meetings, they tend to see right through that ego BS.:-D
Again, try putting 'I see through male ego BS' on your resume'
October 11, 2010 at 4:02 pm
chrisn-585491 (10/11/2010)
Now that I'm engaged, I get treated better. (WTF?!) :angry:
Some 8 years ago I got put high on the company's retrenchment list (they'd hit financial difficulties) because I was single. The logic was that someone with dependants would struggle a lot more after getting retrenched than someone who was only supporting themselves.
Somehow that didn't make me feel any better when I found myself looking for a new job with just a month's warning, during the .com bust and during the slowest part of the year.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 11, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Dan Guzman - Not the MVP (10/11/2010)
Excellent followup article Steve, and JenMidnightDBA, where do I find your blog?
You can find Jen here: http://www.midnightdba.com/Jen/
... Did I treat her differently? Subconsciously, probably, I think I even answered a few questions that weren't even directed at me :hehe:. What can I do about it? I've excluded myself from any future meetings with her, unless my input is specifically requested. What can be done about it by an HR department? That is the million dollar question.
Sorry if I offended anyone.[/quote]
No offense taken here, and good post. I'd agree with you. We can't eliminate sex, our feelings, but we can be aware, and learn to try to consciously combat them.
October 11, 2010 at 8:35 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (10/11/2010)
Dan Guzman - Not the MVP (10/11/2010)
Excellent followup article Steve, and JenMidnightDBA, where do I find your blog?You can find Jen here: http://www.midnightdba.com/Jen/
... Did I treat her differently? Subconsciously, probably, I think I even answered a few questions that weren't even directed at me :hehe:. What can I do about it? I've excluded myself from any future meetings with her, unless my input is specifically requested. What can be done about it by an HR department? That is the million dollar question.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
No offense taken here, and good post. I'd agree with you. We can't eliminate sex, our feelings, but we can be aware, and learn to try to consciously combat them.[/quote]
Agreed. A previous boss used to call that "separating the emotion". That said - I don't think that's specific to either gender by any stretch.
Friendly with some colleagues can be nice, but ultimately it shouldn't be necessary. I've had to fire four very close friends and some of my best working relations have been with people I frankly dislike outside of work: within the confines of those walls it's about what they can contribute, not about the other adjunct stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 36 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply