July 2, 2018 at 1:31 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:50 PMJeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:16 PMPerhaps a bit pedantic because I'm a bit tired of companies selling snake-oil under the guise of "DevOps". It's more like "lets see how much of a premium or extra business we can get because we know of an important buzz word that many don't know the actual meaning of". It happens every bloody time the industry is affronted with the buzzword du jour.Your hammer example is a perfect example of what I'm speaking of. The tools have always existed... the application for those tools has not. But call it a "DevOps" hammer and it's sure to sell better. And, to be sure... people also make the mistake of comparing people who work in DevOps to carpenters. DevOps isn't a person, place, or thing like carpenters, carpentry, and hammers are. DevOps is a culture that actually requires no tools to successfully implement.
And, good grief... have you seen all the job titles that have sprung up with the word "DevOps" in them? It's really gotten ridiculous.
There are always people that take advantage of this, but plenty of companies are selling products as "DevOps", but not charging some premium. The costs of things like Octopus Deploy or Build servers haven't gone up in many cases. They're just using new language to describe tools that were used in other applications.
A build server was used for automation of software assembly, long before it was called DevOps. There are people that have used these tools for things like the Daily Build.
DevOps certainly requires some tools. What it doesn't require is for you to purchase anything or pick any particular tool. You'll need some set of tools to put your culture into practice.
I understand what you're saying but I'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, I believe in good tools and, yes, they make things much easier, but you don't need any tools to have a very successful DevOps culture and just because you have such wonderful tools doesn't mean that you have a DevOps culture.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 3, 2018 at 2:32 am
Jeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 1:31 PMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:50 PMJeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:16 PMPerhaps a bit pedantic because I'm a bit tired of companies selling snake-oil under the guise of "DevOps". It's more like "lets see how much of a premium or extra business we can get because we know of an important buzz word that many don't know the actual meaning of". It happens every bloody time the industry is affronted with the buzzword du jour.Your hammer example is a perfect example of what I'm speaking of. The tools have always existed... the application for those tools has not. But call it a "DevOps" hammer and it's sure to sell better. And, to be sure... people also make the mistake of comparing people who work in DevOps to carpenters. DevOps isn't a person, place, or thing like carpenters, carpentry, and hammers are. DevOps is a culture that actually requires no tools to successfully implement.
And, good grief... have you seen all the job titles that have sprung up with the word "DevOps" in them? It's really gotten ridiculous.
There are always people that take advantage of this, but plenty of companies are selling products as "DevOps", but not charging some premium. The costs of things like Octopus Deploy or Build servers haven't gone up in many cases. They're just using new language to describe tools that were used in other applications.
A build server was used for automation of software assembly, long before it was called DevOps. There are people that have used these tools for things like the Daily Build.
DevOps certainly requires some tools. What it doesn't require is for you to purchase anything or pick any particular tool. You'll need some set of tools to put your culture into practice.
I understand what you're saying but I'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, I believe in good tools and, yes, they make things much easier, but you don't need any tools to have a very successful DevOps culture and just because you have such wonderful tools doesn't mean that you have a DevOps culture.
Care to give some examples of how you'd have a DevOps culture using no tools whatsoever?
July 3, 2018 at 6:08 am
funbi - Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:32 AMJeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 1:31 PMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:50 PMJeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:16 PMPerhaps a bit pedantic because I'm a bit tired of companies selling snake-oil under the guise of "DevOps". It's more like "lets see how much of a premium or extra business we can get because we know of an important buzz word that many don't know the actual meaning of". It happens every bloody time the industry is affronted with the buzzword du jour.Your hammer example is a perfect example of what I'm speaking of. The tools have always existed... the application for those tools has not. But call it a "DevOps" hammer and it's sure to sell better. And, to be sure... people also make the mistake of comparing people who work in DevOps to carpenters. DevOps isn't a person, place, or thing like carpenters, carpentry, and hammers are. DevOps is a culture that actually requires no tools to successfully implement.
And, good grief... have you seen all the job titles that have sprung up with the word "DevOps" in them? It's really gotten ridiculous.
There are always people that take advantage of this, but plenty of companies are selling products as "DevOps", but not charging some premium. The costs of things like Octopus Deploy or Build servers haven't gone up in many cases. They're just using new language to describe tools that were used in other applications.
A build server was used for automation of software assembly, long before it was called DevOps. There are people that have used these tools for things like the Daily Build.
DevOps certainly requires some tools. What it doesn't require is for you to purchase anything or pick any particular tool. You'll need some set of tools to put your culture into practice.
I understand what you're saying but I'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, I believe in good tools and, yes, they make things much easier, but you don't need any tools to have a very successful DevOps culture and just because you have such wonderful tools doesn't mean that you have a DevOps culture.
Care to give some examples of how you'd have a DevOps culture using no tools whatsoever?
What do you consider to be a DevOps tool where the DevOps culture could not exist without it?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 3, 2018 at 6:22 am
Jeff Moden - Tuesday, July 3, 2018 6:08 AMfunbi - Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:32 AMJeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 1:31 PMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:50 PMJeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:16 PMPerhaps a bit pedantic because I'm a bit tired of companies selling snake-oil under the guise of "DevOps". It's more like "lets see how much of a premium or extra business we can get because we know of an important buzz word that many don't know the actual meaning of". It happens every bloody time the industry is affronted with the buzzword du jour.Your hammer example is a perfect example of what I'm speaking of. The tools have always existed... the application for those tools has not. But call it a "DevOps" hammer and it's sure to sell better. And, to be sure... people also make the mistake of comparing people who work in DevOps to carpenters. DevOps isn't a person, place, or thing like carpenters, carpentry, and hammers are. DevOps is a culture that actually requires no tools to successfully implement.
And, good grief... have you seen all the job titles that have sprung up with the word "DevOps" in them? It's really gotten ridiculous.
There are always people that take advantage of this, but plenty of companies are selling products as "DevOps", but not charging some premium. The costs of things like Octopus Deploy or Build servers haven't gone up in many cases. They're just using new language to describe tools that were used in other applications.
A build server was used for automation of software assembly, long before it was called DevOps. There are people that have used these tools for things like the Daily Build.
DevOps certainly requires some tools. What it doesn't require is for you to purchase anything or pick any particular tool. You'll need some set of tools to put your culture into practice.
I understand what you're saying but I'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, I believe in good tools and, yes, they make things much easier, but you don't need any tools to have a very successful DevOps culture and just because you have such wonderful tools doesn't mean that you have a DevOps culture.
Care to give some examples of how you'd have a DevOps culture using no tools whatsoever?
What do you consider to be a DevOps tool where the DevOps culture could not exist without it?
A tool for automation would be a good start. Back to the question I asked you though: you've said "you don't need any tools to have a very successful DevOps culture". Please enlighten me on how this culture would operate without any tools at all?
July 4, 2018 at 1:07 pm
funbi - Tuesday, July 3, 2018 6:22 AMJeff Moden - Tuesday, July 3, 2018 6:08 AMfunbi - Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:32 AMJeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 1:31 PMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:50 PMJeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:16 PMPerhaps a bit pedantic because I'm a bit tired of companies selling snake-oil under the guise of "DevOps". It's more like "lets see how much of a premium or extra business we can get because we know of an important buzz word that many don't know the actual meaning of". It happens every bloody time the industry is affronted with the buzzword du jour.Your hammer example is a perfect example of what I'm speaking of. The tools have always existed... the application for those tools has not. But call it a "DevOps" hammer and it's sure to sell better. And, to be sure... people also make the mistake of comparing people who work in DevOps to carpenters. DevOps isn't a person, place, or thing like carpenters, carpentry, and hammers are. DevOps is a culture that actually requires no tools to successfully implement.
And, good grief... have you seen all the job titles that have sprung up with the word "DevOps" in them? It's really gotten ridiculous.
There are always people that take advantage of this, but plenty of companies are selling products as "DevOps", but not charging some premium. The costs of things like Octopus Deploy or Build servers haven't gone up in many cases. They're just using new language to describe tools that were used in other applications.
A build server was used for automation of software assembly, long before it was called DevOps. There are people that have used these tools for things like the Daily Build.
DevOps certainly requires some tools. What it doesn't require is for you to purchase anything or pick any particular tool. You'll need some set of tools to put your culture into practice.
I understand what you're saying but I'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, I believe in good tools and, yes, they make things much easier, but you don't need any tools to have a very successful DevOps culture and just because you have such wonderful tools doesn't mean that you have a DevOps culture.
Care to give some examples of how you'd have a DevOps culture using no tools whatsoever?
What do you consider to be a DevOps tool where the DevOps culture could not exist without it?
A tool for automation would be a good start. Back to the question I asked you though: you've said "you don't need any tools to have a very successful DevOps culture". Please enlighten me on how this culture would operate without any tools at all?
Such tools for automation have always been a good idea and have been used long before the supposed birth of DevOps. How good will your tool for automation be if you forget to contact OPs and tell them you need a box to deploy to or OPs simply says... "ooohhh... sorry... we forgot"?
Although most people won't agree with that example, it is what I'm talking about. There are some great tools out there that serve either as Dev tools, Ops tools, or QA tools. They've always existed but their existence and usage isn't what DevOps is all about (which should really be DevQuaOps, IMHO).
If I had to name just one physical tool that could be considered nearly essential for DevOps to succeed, it would be whatever email system your company has available.
The other thing that I'll absolutely agree with was written by a fellow by the name of Peter Shannon (https://peterjshan.com/posts/2015/04/devops-a-brief-history/)
Today there exists a very real cultural and professional movement around DevOps, and while we may not all agree on which definition of DevOps is our favorite I think we can all agree the goal is to make things better together.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 4, 2018 at 1:18 pm
Jeff Moden - Wednesday, July 4, 2018 1:07 PMfunbi - Tuesday, July 3, 2018 6:22 AMJeff Moden - Tuesday, July 3, 2018 6:08 AMfunbi - Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:32 AMJeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 1:31 PMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:50 PMJeff Moden - Monday, July 2, 2018 12:16 PMPerhaps a bit pedantic because I'm a bit tired of companies selling snake-oil under the guise of "DevOps". It's more like "lets see how much of a premium or extra business we can get because we know of an important buzz word that many don't know the actual meaning of". It happens every bloody time the industry is affronted with the buzzword du jour.Your hammer example is a perfect example of what I'm speaking of. The tools have always existed... the application for those tools has not. But call it a "DevOps" hammer and it's sure to sell better. And, to be sure... people also make the mistake of comparing people who work in DevOps to carpenters. DevOps isn't a person, place, or thing like carpenters, carpentry, and hammers are. DevOps is a culture that actually requires no tools to successfully implement.
And, good grief... have you seen all the job titles that have sprung up with the word "DevOps" in them? It's really gotten ridiculous.
There are always people that take advantage of this, but plenty of companies are selling products as "DevOps", but not charging some premium. The costs of things like Octopus Deploy or Build servers haven't gone up in many cases. They're just using new language to describe tools that were used in other applications.
A build server was used for automation of software assembly, long before it was called DevOps. There are people that have used these tools for things like the Daily Build.
DevOps certainly requires some tools. What it doesn't require is for you to purchase anything or pick any particular tool. You'll need some set of tools to put your culture into practice.
I understand what you're saying but I'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, I believe in good tools and, yes, they make things much easier, but you don't need any tools to have a very successful DevOps culture and just because you have such wonderful tools doesn't mean that you have a DevOps culture.
Care to give some examples of how you'd have a DevOps culture using no tools whatsoever?
What do you consider to be a DevOps tool where the DevOps culture could not exist without it?
A tool for automation would be a good start. Back to the question I asked you though: you've said "you don't need any tools to have a very successful DevOps culture". Please enlighten me on how this culture would operate without any tools at all?
Such tools for automation have always been a good idea and have been used long before the supposed birth of DevOps. How good will your tool for automation be if you forget to contact OPs and tell them you need a box to deploy to or OPs simply says... "ooohhh... sorry... we forgot"?
Although most people won't agree with that example, it is what I'm talking about. There are some great tools out there that serve either as Dev tools, Ops tools, or QA tools. They've always existed but their existence and usage isn't what DevOps is all about.
If I had to name just one tool that could be considered nearly essential for DevOps to succeed, it would be whatever email system your company has available.
Ok, so now you are saying that you DO need tools. That's cool.
I think we agree in general but sometimes it's hard to tell with blanket statements like "you don't need any tools for DevOps". Of course you need both the tools and the culture as you say. I would add that while some tools have been around for longer than the buzzword has, later editions are certainly being tailored for DevOps now e.g. TFS.
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