May 10, 2010 at 4:07 am
[font="Verdana"]Organizations do adopt various team structures according to their thought process.
If we specifically talk about DB then two styles are frequent.
1. In which the there is no DB Team at all, except a White Elephant named as DBA.
2. A DB team which is responsible for each and every query/procedure writing of SQL.
Which one should be preferred or Market accepts.
Let make this discussion a decisive one.[/font]
May 10, 2010 at 6:49 am
Sorry, I'm not going to be decisive. There are way too many shades of gray between having a full-fledged dedicated set of full-time database developers, and simply having some vague admin type of DBA's. Most situations are not one of these two polar opposites. Most situations fall, probably, almost exactly in the middle, but then the spread is far & fast.
Where I work currently, we have projects that run a very large number of different permutations of these two positions, let alone when I start looking at my past work or at other companies.
I don't think a decisive statement can be said. It depends on the work being done, the people doing the work, the corporate culture, the abilities of the various people involved, development tools, methodologies...
Sorry, but there is no rule or formula that can be derived here. There are too many variables.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 10, 2010 at 7:05 am
[font="Verdana"]
Grant Fritchey (5/10/2010)
Sorry, but there is no rule or formula that can be derived here. There are too many variables.
Fine, but what my past experience suggests me that the product, which in turns is the finite definite Data Base, can be managed well and optimized by the team designated for DBs only.
I have seen mega projects, very IN in market, but if anybody may let know their internal structure, would be shocked at least if not 1000 V but at least 110 V, would be certain.
Each and every front end developer just do put columns in tables, and at one stage, everybody sits and thinks... what to do with this huge uncontrolled giant now!
Otherwise Reinvent, or see and wait up-till it works.
....
So if the application needs more strong data base and have transactional data in terms of thousands per day, e.g telecom domain. Then there is a must dedicated DB Developer team.
But i scare some of Front End Developer do have such DB skills that they can clean sweep even designated professional DB developers!
Hope i am right!
[/font]
May 10, 2010 at 7:07 am
Abrar Ahmad_ (5/10/2010)
1. In which the there is no DB Team at all, except a White Elephant named as DBA.
Wow. How can you ask for a discussion when your bias is so obvious. I'd guess there are a fair few admin DBAs a bit pissed off now...
For those not familiar with the idiom, a 'White Elephant' is a valuable possession that the owner cannot get rid of, but costs (in upkeep) far more than it's worth.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 10, 2010 at 7:11 am
Abrar Ahmad_ (5/10/2010)
Each and every front end developer just do put columns in tables, and at one stage, everybody sits and thinks... what to do with this huge uncontrolled giant now!
That's a bit on the derogatory side, don't you think? The message that I'm getting from your posts is that admin DBAs are too expensive for their worth, developers are incompetent at databases and database developers are gods.
You're a database developer?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 10, 2010 at 7:16 am
Abrar Ahmad_ (5/10/2010)
[font="Verdana"]Grant Fritchey (5/10/2010)
Sorry, but there is no rule or formula that can be derived here. There are too many variables.
Fine, but what my past experience suggests me that the product, which in turns is the finite definite Data Base, can be managed well and optimized by the team designated for DBs only.
I have seen mega projects, very IN in market, but if anybody may let know their internal structure, would be shocked at least if not 1000 V but at least 110 V, would be certain.
Each and every front end developer just do put columns in tables, and at one stage, everybody sits and thinks... what to do with this huge uncontrolled giant now!
Otherwise Reinvent, or see and wait up-till it works.
....
So if the application needs more strong data base and have transactional data in terms of thousands per day, e.g telecom domain. Then there is a must dedicated DB Developer team.
But i scare some of Front End Developer do have such DB skills that they can clean sweep even designated professional DB developers!
Hope i am right!
[/font]
I'm not sure I get where you're going with this, but if I understand what you're saying, I'm still where I was, it just depends too much on skill sets, circumstance, etc., to say that who is, by defined job title, a straight admin-type DBA, won't be tuning badly written procs by someone who is a database developer. I've just seen way too much and know too many people that are filling all sorts of different roles that can get this job done well and can get this job done very poorly.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 10, 2010 at 7:36 am
Fine, but what my past experience suggests me that the product, which in turns is the finite definite Data Base, can be managed well and optimized by the team designated for DBs only.
I have seen mega projects,
I would question your past experience that is leading you to these conclusions. Unless you have worked on mega projects (and not just seen one) I would not start talking about things you have not worked with or in much.
Shawn Melton
Twitter: @wsmelton
Blog: wsmelton.github.com
Github: wsmelton
May 10, 2010 at 7:39 am
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GilaMonster (5/10/2010)
Abrar Ahmad_ (5/10/2010)
1. In which the there is no DB Team at all, except a White Elephant named as DBA.Wow. How can you ask for a discussion when your bias is so obvious. I'd guess there are a fair few admin DBAs a bit pissed off now...
For those not familiar with the idiom, a 'White Elephant' is a valuable possession that the owner cannot get rid of, but costs (in upkeep) far more than it's worth.
Dear Gail,
Yes my question is about the Worth. Worth of DB Developers and DBAs is overlooked. If i am working in a company with the strength round 100, but there are 1-2 Personnel's working specifically for the DB.
It may be an exceptional scenario but i witnessed it.
My inquiry was, if employers think that the DB can be fully managed by Front End Developers, and specially i wrote bad controlled DB by the front end developer, then absolutely i prefer the approach where the Fully functional DB team should take care of DB. And even in the worst scenarios i am biased that the Designated DB Personnel's work would be better.
And by this the DB Developer won't become god etc... but qualitative approach needs DB developers assistance in average cases. If this is biased then it is my opinion you may can suggest the better one.
Thanks for your time.
[/font]
May 10, 2010 at 7:51 am
Abrar Ahmad_ (5/10/2010)
My inquiry was, if employers think that the DB can be fully managed by Front End Developers, and specially i wrote bad controlled DB by the front end developer, then absolutely i prefer the approach where the Fully functional DB team should take care of DB. And even in the worst scenarios i am biased that the Designated DB Personnel's work would be better.And by this the DB Developer won't become god etc... but qualitative approach needs DB developers assistance in average cases. If this is biased then it is my opinion you may can suggest the better one.
I've seen a dedicated team of database developers make such a botch-up of a system that it would likely have been faster to scrap it and start from scratch than to fix it.
I've seen front-end developers write good, stable, well performing code. Maybe not as fancy and elegant as what it could have been, but it worked and it was fast.
I've seen admin DBAs who wanted nothing to do with design or code, I've also seen admin DBAs who did awesome database designs.
You need skilled people, not titles, to get the job done.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 10, 2010 at 7:56 am
GilaMonster (5/10/2010)
You need skilled people, not titles, to get the job done.
Here, here!
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 10, 2010 at 8:44 am
Grant Fritchey (5/10/2010)
GilaMonster (5/10/2010)
You need skilled people, not titles, to get the job done.
Here, here!
I fully agree!
May 10, 2010 at 9:42 am
I think, as others have mentioned, that you have a very colored experience in one way. Or two ways.
I have seen good and bad DBAs, good and bad developers with regard to building databases. I've seen totalitarian DBAs that did not let anyone write SQL, and I've seen DBAs that didn't care, or couldn't enforce their will at all. And I've been in all those situations.
The best method for me, has been to have me review all SQL code, but work with and train developers to write some of the code. Often they can write many queries for you, and even build tables, but having the DBA review things helps ensure that code works well and that it can be tuned.
May 10, 2010 at 8:07 pm
Lynn Pettis (5/10/2010)
Grant Fritchey (5/10/2010)
GilaMonster (5/10/2010)
You need skilled people, not titles, to get the job done.
Here, here!
I fully agree!
Heh... I don't believe there's a doubt in anyone's mind as to how I feel about titles and letters after a person's name especially after all the discussion about the MCJ cert. With that in mind, I'll also give a resounding "HERE, HERE!"
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 10, 2010 at 11:22 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (5/10/2010)
The best method for me, has been to have me review all SQL code, but work with and train developers to write some of the code. Often they can write many queries for you, and even build tables, but having the DBA review things helps ensure that code works well and that it can be tuned.
Steve,
Yes, Agreed.
May 11, 2010 at 6:14 am
Grant Fritchey (5/10/2010)
GilaMonster (5/10/2010)
You need skilled people, not titles, to get the job done.
Agreed! You need people that know what they are doing rather than titles. Just because someone calls him/her self DB developer, does not make them such. From reading through the posts, it would seem that you've worked in environments that lack good process controls & adequate management - it has nothing to do with front-end developers or DB Developers, but rather, management determining 'who' is the most qualified to do the specific work, imo.
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